From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id aElmFcHPsGGk1QAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 16:31:13 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id MHsWEcHPsGGCKgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 15:31:13 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D20441F16E for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 16:31:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47454 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muyuV-00021Y-Fh for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 10:31:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53742) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muytV-000216-IW for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 10:30:09 -0500 Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::636] (port=44885 helo=mail-pl1-x636.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muytM-00053u-L5 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 10:30:02 -0500 Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id q17so1724556plr.11 for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 07:29:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=AC2nSM4nAbLWt6JbR2PPJ1Wd522ZAl0HFPihqCmZmsI=; b=gqNRJBSWPE8nw/AmyvDkt0J+fjVkvpI8q3mswdIqJP3I1rlHUQ92X82zDNMJTry9It 1vFcGgqDJU+nvEFLrhBMHPSjm6kZ7HdAp33DsdOLld9ENkoQpiUpz4ap+xuC+1NsQ1HN ObarAEP84VQ4rQbkxyohwxxbk3JmXN6sh4jF1CDYMGtIcBpyoEIhe+3xZelIHOxNAoa/ DcO5y/QXm9evJvsDxf14usGvgSvqTNn3zL0XLwM/DkgFwFp+sGkcTrCo5XM9cnk8DLrn oJuQHARSbZrSw1XGWDzg4tnNkqkiHq4Ah316k2z/cR4SH/OzEPcBlVDJ/bj6trPxADzh /1LA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=AC2nSM4nAbLWt6JbR2PPJ1Wd522ZAl0HFPihqCmZmsI=; b=z5aoz2uV33to7HDqJ/XOTgm/G0EUeeOzazutXv4UzVZ1LTEJg0EBQeAPPCkqWMsA0N SuWYB8frEDeu7ewmyuQPDx9szXOJzG5hDAKio+scBnfN+aYZ7by55jib/4dzr8STUzOM XwvQwYyPyGamIO0Ks0uiVPlajL2H31HoVHaqYVl4Yhcq+uCY7BA+geWAgkjZ+wDLDp4p WLnOBxR2zkFHdSWj3KmAE22YKEm8uvJLLvObvzxMsFRNF3iBEX87BYpPalViVGJUeh5Z /VUljSH9hDKcDNlfjyx0e7y6qmZB9QIm60phOUCwl+U2ZEzCBycCzAto6duc54IR6p4u XKrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532nLVDEvA8T8uA3SlT4Pjym5P60C20qyX6Sunjdxsxl9pPSFAFk IjwFUIABrtdh4RQuaP0tfTrpOKI4eZw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzij/8+5fxWE6PK03ZudfZx86l3jW4Lf9bxx04n5uzwFbj5uudRqpgmXhRHFn0dQJ40JsBLyA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1913:: with SMTP id 19mr8039990pjg.174.1638977398204; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 07:29:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from dingbat (2001-44b8-31f2-bb00-1c30-5b24-0a78-6bff.static.ipv6.internode.on.net. [2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:1c30:5b24:a78:6bff]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g14sm2951493pgo.88.2021.12.08.07.29.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Dec 2021 07:29:57 -0800 (PST) References: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost> <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> <87o85vbb9a.fsf@localhost> <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87ilw3419x.fsf@gmail.com> <87o85v9la3.fsf@localhost> <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> User-agent: mu4e 1.7.5; emacs 28.0.90 From: Tim Cross To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 01:39:57 +1100 In-reply-to: <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> Message-ID: <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::636 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::636; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x636.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638977473; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=AC2nSM4nAbLWt6JbR2PPJ1Wd522ZAl0HFPihqCmZmsI=; b=PdiMQAz4p4BG5nrf6UYuNyQ/YC2EUHCcKWgtc0lLGVTX9CRE77rEl56u0Vo92VHgkR7VV/ tv8zFV9nppDLlnEH7n85cTKH4+l7csbyFtQf3zlFzg15/LbPXDdEEo9WSYTx4C00FHcPMu W51gAoKWEh/hVOe07GEnmFs5OTI/yA3T7gVi+DM3DoZ98IjWKSImycrwJRTxPrRiOdJL9J 6hvIu19fhJdo+zyU0E07noEbJCoSWCrXKis49sE8u/EcskHZYx6lEbnrsrRocHHkLtDjrO mWAPwak95N3HjYjGJLxrURoy8wXv3ZRvyl/BW5nPgO25svjctD4BH6NUMHSewg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638977473; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=sGMfXV354hyq9xxDIrr/kMFrSiqOJb9LfKWZUvC8Xgp00YQ9uL70b3V/mneoPLS4b/sxIg Eux9CL4F5dDMOOBf2nadnuizTVP/sTwjpEpRwChS+6iHZNol5902uH5i75CIjtnIo+N+lu V/Vamyb9HTXplV0/eq21blMgbpPTGGwsVWB8tPaVfByd5T4/Z3KQr7hxOyjxBJkOwtKycz 1ljOrRVeyg8iShNr3SN5XtmTvdqedIJcgRfI5x8gwSK1/nyUvezv+Z341Aqokvg7yZBdpF PJklv1WGLs67Tj7Q3KM8I2QvmEgGTDcN+lFSQBcruv7ppZhyAZjLrn8I0sjMGg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=gqNRJBSW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.15 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=gqNRJBSW; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D20441F16E X-Spam-Score: -4.15 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: xZmRCE10J/Gw Ihor Radchenko writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Meanwhile, Emacs development continues and new features/capabilities >> continue to be added. In particular, a new feature is added which is >> extremely powerful and would be a huge benefit for Emacs org-mode users. >> However, there is a problem. In order to take advantage of this new >> feature, significant changes are required for the specification. This >> will result in implementations requiring considerable work in order to >> update them to the new specification. > > I disagree. We already need to care about back-compatibility of Org > syntax (think of org documents written years ago). Major changes to > syntax are very unlikely even without considering third-party software. > And, by the way, remember the existing "third party" Elisp packages > (think of Org roam, for example). We do not want to break them. > Backwards compatibility is important and changes should never be done lightly. However, that doesn't mean they don't occur (we have already had breaking changes, so old org files are likely to have issues already). Backwards compatibility can also become a burden and sometimes, needs to be sacrificed to maintain the viability or maintainability of the system. So while I totally agree we should work very hard not to break compatibility or adversely affect other projects which are built on top of org mode, like org-roam, we also don't want to find ourselves in a position where we cannot improve/enhance org mode because of the impact it has on other projects. The priority should always be org-mode as an Emacs mode. When there is a need for a breaking change, that needs to be managed in a way which provides other dependent libraries and projects a reasonable time to adapt. Having thought about this whole thread and other recent posts, I still feel any concern or reference to third party libraries etc is misguided or at the least, irrelevant. Most of the suggestions are fine and would be beneficial to org mode (such as clearly defined, consistent and documented syntax). The fact 3rd party libraries would also benefit from this is a bonus, but largely irrelevant. I'm not convinced that the perceived lack of such documentation or specification is actually the impediment to a 3rd party org mode. I think the real problem and the real reason you are unlikely to get a version of org-mode which is popular for non-Emacs users (and would facilitate collaboration with non-Emacs users) is because what makes org-mode so great has little to do with the markup. The org-mode markup is no better or worse than other 'markdown' dialects. What makes org-mode such a great system is intrinsically interwoven with Emacs and the facilities Emacs provides. The amount of work which would be required in another editor to get even close to the experience and benefits of org mode is simply too high. The best you can hope for is some baic rendering and syntax highlighting/font-locking, which is unlikely to be sufficient to make people switch from the existing markdown they already use. I think a far more likely scenario is that we will see some/many of the ideas found in org-mode adapted and implemented in other editors, but without concern for compatibility. This has little to do with Emacs org-mode's documentation or org-modes specification, but rather is about how the ideas which are encapsulated in org-mode can be implemented in other systems and within the limitations of those systems. I'm actually surprised there hasn't been more org-mode clones already, but that could be a reflection of the amount of work it would take to create something which wasn't just another markdown module that renders a reasonable HTML/PDF version of it's contents. .