[MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Dear all,

This email is inspired by recent request by org-vcard maintainer to
transfer maintenance to someone else:
https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard

As a part of Org project (https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/), we currently have
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/org-contrib/:

   org-contrib: Contributed packages to Org in search for new maintainers.

There, we do a very minimal maintenance and encourage people to take
over the containing packages.

Should we extend the org-contrib's current idea to other Org-related
packages that are seeking a maintainer? Similar to
https://github.com/emacsorphanage

We may temporarily use Org mailing list as a place to report bugs.

- This will give a better chance for interested people to contribute,
  and hopefully take over the work on abandoned packages.

- We can also guarantee some (very) minimal maintenance.

- And it will promote Org mailing list as a place to discuss Org-related
  staff.

WDYT?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien]

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> WDYT?

I think it is a very good idea and a natural evolution of org-contrib,
thanks for suggesting this.

If we move in this direction, "org-contrib" is probably not a good
name anymore: perhaps "org-stub"? "org-orphanage"? Other ideas?

We can announce this along with the Org 9.6 release.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> I think it is a very good idea and a natural evolution of org-contrib,
> thanks for suggesting this.
>
> If we move in this direction, "org-contrib" is probably not a good
> name anymore: perhaps "org-stub"? "org-orphanage"? Other ideas?

I am not sure if it is a good idea to keep everything in a single
repository. Maybe just create org-orphanage project, a sub-project of our
main ~bzg/org project. That org-orphanage will link to the repos we are
taking care of.

Maybe we can even gather links to all the active Org-related packages in
a similar fashion (within a dedicated sub-project).

P.S. Does sourcehut have a notion of organizations?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Alexis]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> P.S. Does sourcehut have a notion of organizations?

Not at the moment, but Drew recently blogged that the plan is to 
commence work on this soon:

> We also plan on tackling another long-awaited feature soon: user 
> groups, or organizations. This and the other features described 
> have been blocked on the completion of our GraphQL work, and 
> with this work out of the way, it’s time to prepare for a flurry 
> of new feature development to round out the alpha and finally 
> bring the SourceHut beta into life.

-- https://sourcehut.org/blog/2022-11-15-four-years/


Alexis.

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> I think it is a very good idea and a natural evolution of org-contrib,
> thanks for suggesting this.
> ...
> We can announce this along with the Org 9.6 release.

So, we now have https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html

It is very bare bones.

We can add the following:

1. Mention orphanage at https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html
   Probably, in a visible way, as a div box.
2. Add org-contrib
3. Link to orphanage from https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/
4. Maybe add a separate section to updates.orgmode.org
5. We can offer to move orphaned repositories to sr.ht under our control
   and mention that we can do minimal maintenance then.

WDYT?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> I think it is a very good idea and a natural evolution of org-contrib,
>> thanks for suggesting this.
>> ...
>> We can announce this along with the Org 9.6 release.
>
> So, we now have https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html
>
> It is very bare bones.

:)

> We can add the following:
>
> 1. Mention orphanage at https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html
>    Probably, in a visible way, as a div box.

I added a mention early on in the page, but perhaps this can be made
more prominent.

> 2. Add org-contrib

Done.

> 3. Link to orphanage from https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/

Done.

> 4. Maybe add a separate section to updates.orgmode.org

Not done, as updates.orgmode.org will be deprecated soon.

> 5. We can offer to move orphaned repositories to sr.ht under our control
>    and mention that we can do minimal maintenance then.

I'm not sure about this.

Another idea is to rename org-contrib to org-orphanage and to offer to
add *.el files there?  This way we make it very obvious that these files
receive minimal maintenance while allowing users to install them through
GNU ELPA.

WDYT?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> 5. We can offer to move orphaned repositories to sr.ht under our control
>>    and mention that we can do minimal maintenance then.
>
> I'm not sure about this.
>
> Another idea is to rename org-contrib to org-orphanage and to offer to
> add *.el files there?  This way we make it very obvious that these files
> receive minimal maintenance while allowing users to install them through
> GNU ELPA.
>
> WDYT?

I do not think that it is a good idea:

1. I am not sure how org-contrib to org-orphanage will affect ELPA
   package
2. Adding packages to org-contrib may surprise users who install
   org-contrib.
3. Most importantly, some packages have multiple files and provide a
   separate *-pkg.el file. Adding them to org-contrib will require extra
   work to make things installable.
4. How will we continue distributing the orphan packages on ELPA from
   the new source?   

I guess we may work around the above issues using git sub-modules, but I
am not sure if it is going to be easier compared to separate package
list.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I do not think that it is a good idea:

Fair enough.  There seems to be very little interest in contributing
to https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html with abandoned Org
packages so far: I suggest we worry on enhancing this page once there
is enough contributions there.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>> I do not think that it is a good idea:
>
> Fair enough.  There seems to be very little interest in contributing
> to https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html with abandoned Org
> packages so far: I suggest we worry on enhancing this page once there
> is enough contributions there.

I do not really expect much interest as long as the orphaned packages
keep working. And, more importantly, as long as the original package
source (like Github) does not direct users to Org ML.

Package users are the most likely people who will be interested to take
over the maintenance.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> I do not really expect much interest as long as the orphaned packages
> keep working. And, more importantly, as long as the original package
> source (like Github) does not direct users to Org ML.
>
> Package users are the most likely people who will be interested to take
> over the maintenance.

Agreed for all the above.

To be sure that we are not miscommunicating, my point is that we can
advertize https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html as a place where
anyone can document orphan Org packages, then once there are enough
packages on this page, we can try solving the other problem, that of 
providing a new shelter for these packages.  Does that make sense?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> To be sure that we are not miscommunicating, my point is that we can
> advertize https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html as a place where
> anyone can document orphan Org packages, then once there are enough
> packages on this page, we can try solving the other problem, that of 
> providing a new shelter for these packages.  Does that make sense?

I am not sure why we need to wait with an optional offer.
Merely announcing an orphan package without moving to sr.ht is also ok,
I think.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> To be sure that we are not miscommunicating, my point is that we can
>> advertize https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html as a place where
>> anyone can document orphan Org packages, then once there are enough
>> packages on this page, we can try solving the other problem, that of 
>> providing a new shelter for these packages.  Does that make sense?
>
> I am not sure why we need to wait with an optional offer.

You mean, the optional offer of providing a proper shelter for orphan
packages?

> Merely announcing an orphan package without moving to sr.ht is also ok,
> I think.

Yes, that's what I think too: maintaining worg/org-orphanage.org is
very useful.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> I am not sure why we need to wait with an optional offer.
>
> You mean, the optional offer of providing a proper shelter for orphan
> packages?

Yes.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

>>> I am not sure why we need to wait with an optional offer.
>>
>> You mean, the optional offer of providing a proper shelter for orphan
>> packages?
>
> Yes.

Well, if too few people care about Org orphan packages to document
them on worg/org-orphanage.org I'm a bit pessimistic about people
helping to maintain the new shelter -- but please go ahead.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Samuel Wales]

what it it were made emacs-wide?  and linked all over with "things you
can do to contribute"?

On 1/5/23, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>>>> I am not sure why we need to wait with an optional offer.
>>>
>>> You mean, the optional offer of providing a proper shelter for orphan
>>> packages?
>>
>> Yes.
>
> Well, if too few people care about Org orphan packages to document
> them on worg/org-orphanage.org I'm a bit pessimistic about people
> helping to maintain the new shelter -- but please go ahead.
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Greg Minshall]

Ihor, Bastien, et al.,

i am not really following this conversation.

but, recently i was looking at org-grep, and found its new home:
----
https://github.com/emacsorphanage/org-grep
----

Ihor mentions the emacs orphange:
> Should we extend the org-contrib's current idea to other Org-related
> packages that are seeking a maintainer? Similar to
> https://github.com/emacsorphanage

are there reasons not to punt the orphanage issue to this emacs
orphanage (and, point to it from the org wiki)?  on the one hand, "less
control".  on the other, "less work" (even "globally", if things scale).

cheers, Greg

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien Guerry]

Hi Greg,

Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu> writes:

> but, recently i was looking at org-grep, and found its new home:
> ----
> https://github.com/emacsorphanage/org-grep

thanks - I added this to the org-orphanage.org page on Worg:
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html

Contributing to Worg is as easy as editing some Org files, committing
and pushing: don't hesitate to contribute.

> are there reasons not to punt the orphanage issue to this emacs
> orphanage (and, point to it from the org wiki)?  on the one hand, "less
> control".  on the other, "less work" (even "globally", if things scale).

Indeed, perhaps https://github.com/emacsorphanage is a good shelter
for Org orphan packages already.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> are there reasons not to punt the orphanage issue to this emacs
>> orphanage (and, point to it from the org wiki)?  on the one hand, "less
>> control".  on the other, "less work" (even "globally", if things scale).
>
> Indeed, perhaps https://github.com/emacsorphanage is a good shelter
> for Org orphan packages already.

It is a good shelter, but I was hoping to promote Sourcehut and
discourage people using Github to report issues in favour of Org mailing
list.

Otherwise, I have no objections to Jonas Bernoulli doing the background
maintenance. Less work for us at the end.

One thing we may do though is letting him know about
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html - he may contact us or use
GitHub mentions, and he may let us know when a new Org-related package
lands on his repo.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[tomas]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 249 bytes --]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2023 at 04:51:01PM +0000, Ihor Radchenko wrote:

[...]

> It is a good shelter, but I was hoping to promote Sourcehut and
> discourage people using Github to report issues in favour of Org mailing
> list.

<3

Thanks
-- 

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Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

>> Indeed, perhaps https://github.com/emacsorphanage is a good shelter
>> for Org orphan packages already.
>
> It is a good shelter, but I was hoping to promote Sourcehut and
> discourage people using Github to report issues in favour of Org mailing
> list.

I see, and I agree, especially if issues against Org orphan packages
are to be reported on the Org mailing list at some point.

Shall I create https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/org-orphan-packages ?

> Otherwise, I have no objections to Jonas Bernoulli doing the background
> maintenance. Less work for us at the end.

It's probably wiser to expect org-orphan-packages maintainers to come
from the Org community, rather than drawning Jonas Bernoulli into more
maintenance workload...

> One thing we may do though is letting him know about
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html - he may contact us or use
> GitHub mentions, and he may let us know when a new Org-related package
> lands on his repo.

I updated https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html with Org
packages from https://github.com/emacsorphanage - once you agree that
we create https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/org-orphan-packages, we can suggest
Jonas to move the Org abandoned repos from emacsorphanage to our repo,
and to add a note on emacsorphanage's README?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien Guerry]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Shall I create https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/org-orphan-packages ?

Or better https://git.sr.ht/~org-orphanage/ as a new user, to where
Org orphan repos could be added.

This would mimick emacsorphanage, which is a GitHub organization.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Shall I create https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/org-orphan-packages ?
>
> Or better https://git.sr.ht/~org-orphanage/ as a new user, to where
> Org orphan repos could be added.
>
> This would mimick emacsorphanage, which is a GitHub organization.

+1

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
>>> Indeed, perhaps https://github.com/emacsorphanage is a good shelter
>>> for Org orphan packages already.
>>
>> It is a good shelter, but I was hoping to promote Sourcehut and
>> discourage people using Github to report issues in favour of Org mailing
>> list.
>
> I see, and I agree, especially if issues against Org orphan packages
> are to be reported on the Org mailing list at some point.
>
> Shall I create https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/org-orphan-packages ?
>
>> Otherwise, I have no objections to Jonas Bernoulli doing the background
>> maintenance. Less work for us at the end.
>
> It's probably wiser to expect org-orphan-packages maintainers to come
> from the Org community, rather than drawning Jonas Bernoulli into more
> maintenance workload...

That's certainly appreciated. ;P

I think what we have now is a good compromise.  We continue to use the
existing emacsorphanage for org-related packages, which previously were
maintained on github anyway.  If more org-related packages are abandoned
and they already use github, then I will continue to suggest to their
maintainers to transfer them to the emacsorphanage, but let you know
about it.  For ideological reasons, packages shouldn't be *moved to*
github, but if they are already there, it seems okay to keep them there
a bit longer.

Packages that need a new home and previously were maintained somewhere
other than github, should probably be hosted on https://git.sr.ht/~bzg
for now.

>> One thing we may do though is letting him know about
>> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html - he may contact us or use
>> GitHub mentions, and he may let us know when a new Org-related package
>> lands on his repo.

Will do.

     Jonas

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

> I think what we have now is a good compromise.  We continue to use the
> existing emacsorphanage for org-related packages, which previously were
> maintained on github anyway.  If more org-related packages are abandoned
> and they already use github, then I will continue to suggest to their
> maintainers to transfer them to the emacsorphanage, but let you know
> about it.  For ideological reasons, packages shouldn't be *moved to*
> github, but if they are already there, it seems okay to keep them there
> a bit longer.
>
> Packages that need a new home and previously were maintained somewhere
> other than github, should probably be hosted on https://git.sr.ht/~bzg
> for now.

+1

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> are there reasons not to punt the orphanage issue to this emacs
>>> orphanage (and, point to it from the org wiki)?  on the one hand, "less
>>> control".  on the other, "less work" (even "globally", if things scale).
>>
>> Indeed, perhaps https://github.com/emacsorphanage is a good shelter
>> for Org orphan packages already.
>
> It is a good shelter, but I was hoping to promote Sourcehut and
> discourage people using Github to report issues in favour of Org mailing
> list.
>
> Otherwise, I have no objections to Jonas Bernoulli doing the background
> maintenance. Less work for us at the end.
>
> One thing we may do though is letting him know about
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html - he may contact us or use
> GitHub mentions, and he may let us know when a new Org-related package
> lands on his repo.

Adding Jonas to the loop.

For some more context, we are willing to help maintaining orphan
Org-related packages if the requests are submitted to Org mailing list.

The orphaned packages are accumulated at
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html, which is also referenced in
our call for contributors at
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html

This discussion: https://list.orgmode.org/874jusk9gg.fsf@localhost/

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Adding Jonas to the loop.
>
> For some more context, we are willing to help maintaining orphan
> Org-related packages if the requests are submitted to Org mailing list.

Thanks, and sorry I forgot about this.  I'll have to think about it some
more before I can make any general suggestions; today I am writing about
one package in particular that needs some help:

`htmlize' is currently maintained at https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize
but its maintainer hasn't been responding to any issues and pull-requests
for quite some time now and seems to be inactive on Github altogether.

(CCing Hrvoje, in case he has just turned of Github notifications.)

It seems to me it would be a good idea if Hrvoje gave one or more Org
maintainer commit access to this repository.  Alternatively we could
maintain it at https://github.com/emacsorphanage/htmlize, and I could
take care of giving commit access, but in that case Hrvoje would also
have to get involved briefly at least, to transfer the repository to
that organization.

Regardless of where this package will eventually end up being
maintained, it would be a good idea to keep it on Github at least until
most of the issues and pull-requests that have already been opened there
have been resolved.

     Cheers,
     Jonas

Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode (was: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

> `htmlize' is currently maintained at https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize
> but its maintainer hasn't been responding to any issues and pull-requests
> for quite some time now and seems to be inactive on Github altogether.

Hmm... Org has built-in htmlize support and I did not know that it is
not maintained actively.

Note that Timothy wrote https://github.com/tecosaur/engrave-faces that
provides similar functionality but not just for HTML.

We might consider extending engrave-faces to cover all the htmlize
features.

> Regardless of where this package will eventually end up being
> maintained, it would be a good idea to keep it on Github at least until
> most of the issues and pull-requests that have already been opened there
> have been resolved.

Or we can simply hand-pick that 13 open Github issues and transfer them
manually. (Does not mean that we have to do it, but I see not why having
a few issues on Github should be a blocker to anything)

> It seems to me it would be a good idea if Hrvoje gave one or more Org
> maintainer commit access to this repository.  Alternatively we could
> maintain it at https://github.com/emacsorphanage/htmlize, and I could
> take care of giving commit access, but in that case Hrvoje would also
> have to get involved briefly at least, to transfer the repository to
> that organization.

Also an option.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode (was: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?)

[Samuel Wales]

[fyi that is probably not related: i use htmlize.el for functions it
has that allow you to copy a region omitting invisible parts.  e.g.
partly folded magit.  i haven't found other code that workd for that
and myb rain could not construct any.]


On 8/13/23, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
> Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:
>
>> `htmlize' is currently maintained at
>> https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize
>> but its maintainer hasn't been responding to any issues and pull-requests
>> for quite some time now and seems to be inactive on Github altogether.
>
> Hmm... Org has built-in htmlize support and I did not know that it is
> not maintained actively.
>
> Note that Timothy wrote https://github.com/tecosaur/engrave-faces that
> provides similar functionality but not just for HTML.
>
> We might consider extending engrave-faces to cover all the htmlize
> features.
>
>> Regardless of where this package will eventually end up being
>> maintained, it would be a good idea to keep it on Github at least until
>> most of the issues and pull-requests that have already been opened there
>> have been resolved.
>
> Or we can simply hand-pick that 13 open Github issues and transfer them
> manually. (Does not mean that we have to do it, but I see not why having
> a few issues on Github should be a blocker to anything)
>
>> It seems to me it would be a good idea if Hrvoje gave one or more Org
>> maintainer commit access to this repository.  Alternatively we could
>> maintain it at https://github.com/emacsorphanage/htmlize, and I could
>> take care of giving commit access, but in that case Hrvoje would also
>> have to get involved briefly at least, to transfer the repository to
>> that organization.
>
> Also an option.
>
> --
> Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
> Org mode contributor,
> Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
> Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
> or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode (was: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?)

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:
>
>> `htmlize' is currently maintained at https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize
>> but its maintainer hasn't been responding to any issues and pull-requests
>> for quite some time now and seems to be inactive on Github altogether.
>
> Hmm... Org has built-in htmlize support and I did not know that it is
> not maintained actively.

I only installed htmlize because org-html-fontify-code told me to do so.
Should it not have done that?  I did not have any version of htmlize
installed prior to this.

>> Regardless of where this package will eventually end up being
>> maintained, it would be a good idea to keep it on Github at least until
>> most of the issues and pull-requests that have already been opened there
>> have been resolved.
>
> Or we can simply hand-pick that 13 open Github issues and transfer them
> manually. (Does not mean that we have to do it, but I see not why having
> a few issues on Github should be a blocker to anything)

The idea was to let those who have already opened pull-requests on
Github and have been patiently waiting for a response ever since, to
finish the work there.

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode (was: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

>> Hmm... Org has built-in htmlize support and I did not know that it is
>> not maintained actively.
>
> I only installed htmlize because org-html-fontify-code told me to do so.
> Should it not have done that?  I did not have any version of htmlize
> installed prior to this.

That's fine to install htmlize. Org relies upon htmlize for certain
features, including HTML export.

However, we also recently added engrave-faces for LaTeX export. And
engrave-faces is advertised as successor to htmlize. So, we might
consider (in future) to offer engrave-faces as another option to export
HTML as well. (This idea has nothing to do with helping to maintain
htmlize - it will be relevant for a long time at least for users of
older Org versions, even if we decide to use engrave-faces instead of
htmlize).

>> Or we can simply hand-pick that 13 open Github issues and transfer them
>> manually. (Does not mean that we have to do it, but I see not why having
>> a few issues on Github should be a blocker to anything)
>
> The idea was to let those who have already opened pull-requests on
> Github and have been patiently waiting for a response ever since, to
> finish the work there.

Good point. Although all the pull requests appear to be rather trivial
from the first glance. Let's see if Hrvoje has anything to say.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Bastien Guerry]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> That's fine to install htmlize. Org relies upon htmlize for certain
> features, including HTML export.

A while ago, it has been suggested to rely on htmlfontify.el, which is
part of Emacs core, instead of htmlize.el.

Maybe this is still relevant?

If not, then relying on engrave-faces, which is maintained and also
handles LaTeX, instead of htmlize, sounds like a good idea.

2 cts,

-- 
 Bastien Guerry

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> If not, then relying on engrave-faces, which is maintained and also
> handles LaTeX, instead of htmlize, sounds like a good idea.

I'd like to hear Timothy's opinion on this. He is the author of
engrave-faces and the maintainer of ox-html.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Bastien Guerry]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> If not, then relying on engrave-faces, which is maintained and also
>> handles LaTeX, instead of htmlize, sounds like a good idea.
>
> I'd like to hear Timothy's opinion on this. He is the author of
> engrave-faces and the maintainer of ox-html.

Sure!

-- 
 Bastien Guerry

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Timothy]

Hi All,

I'm currently traveling, but it seems like it would be good to chime in here.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2023, at 5:22 PM, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> If not, then relying on engrave-faces, which is maintained and also
>> handles LaTeX, instead of htmlize, sounds like a good idea.
>
> I'd like to hear Timothy's opinion on this. He is the author of
> engrave-faces and the maintainer of ox-html.

So, I looked into htmlfontify ans htmlize quite a bit before and during my work on engrave-faces. I've forgotten quite a few of the details (particularly around internals) by this point, but still recall a fair bit and have an overall impression.

Engrave-faces heavily inspired by htmlize, and actually copies some methods from it. It was created to address two limitations I was running up against:
- The lack of support for other output formats
- The lack of support for not-the-current theme output

At this point, it's fairly stable and supports a superset of the capabilities of htmlize. It's a bit slower ATM, but I haven't found performance to be an issue in usage with Org exports. There are one or two more things it would be nice to do in future, but I don't anticipate any need to change the current public API.

I think it would make quite a bit of sense for it to be used more with Org, we can use it to provide a unified approach to source code highlighting. Currently this would just be LaTeX and HTML, but I'd like to extend code highlighting support to ASCII and ODT exports later on.

All the best,
Timothy.

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Philip Kaludercic]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:
>
>> `htmlize' is currently maintained at https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize
>> but its maintainer hasn't been responding to any issues and pull-requests
>> for quite some time now and seems to be inactive on Github altogether.
>
> Hmm... Org has built-in htmlize support and I did not know that it is
> not maintained actively.
>
> Note that Timothy wrote https://github.com/tecosaur/engrave-faces that
> provides similar functionality but not just for HTML.
>
> We might consider extending engrave-faces to cover all the htmlize
> features.

Perhaps I missed something, but is there an issue with the built-in
`htmlfontify'?

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

>> We might consider extending engrave-faces to cover all the htmlize
>> features.
>
> Perhaps I missed something, but is there an issue with the built-in
> `htmlfontify'?

Org uses htmlize historically.
Nicolas once tried to port htmlize support into htmlfontify [1], but it
did not go well [2].

[1] https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/874lnw5rfi.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/
[2] https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/874ldzovv4.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/

As for engrave-faces, it is working for both LaTeX and HTML export.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Philip Kaludercic]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>
>>> We might consider extending engrave-faces to cover all the htmlize
>>> features.
>>
>> Perhaps I missed something, but is there an issue with the built-in
>> `htmlfontify'?
>
> Org uses htmlize historically.
> Nicolas once tried to port htmlize support into htmlfontify [1], but it
> did not go well [2].
>
> [1] https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/874lnw5rfi.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/
> [2] https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/874ldzovv4.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/

How come you infer that it didn't go that well?  It just seems incomplete?

> As for engrave-faces, it is working for both LaTeX and HTML export.

Would that have the same issue has htmlize, that it copies the colours
from the currently active theme, causing issues when exporting a website
while a dark-theme is enabled?

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> writes:

>> Nicolas once tried to port htmlize support into htmlfontify [1], but it
>> did not go well [2].
>>
>> [1] https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/874lnw5rfi.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/
>> [2] https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/874ldzovv4.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/
>
> How come you infer that it didn't go that well?  It just seems incomplete?

That's what I meant. The latest thread named some issue with fine-tuning
the output and never got any follow-up.

>> As for engrave-faces, it is working for both LaTeX and HTML export.
>
> Would that have the same issue has htmlize, that it copies the colours
> from the currently active theme, causing issues when exporting a website
> while a dark-theme is enabled?

No. It can copy the current theme, but it is not the default. Instead,
engrave-faces provides customization on how the faces should be
re-mapped. Defaults are tuned to work for usual white backgrounds, but
can be customized either using existing Emacs themes, or by hand,
mapping Emacs faces to text colors and attributes.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Bastien Guerry]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> That's what I meant. The latest thread named some issue with fine-tuning
> the output and never got any follow-up.

(Please ignore my suggestion to explore the htmlfontify.el scenario.)

>>> As for engrave-faces, it is working for both LaTeX and HTML export.
>>
>> Would that have the same issue has htmlize, that it copies the colours
>> from the currently active theme, causing issues when exporting a website
>> while a dark-theme is enabled?
>
> No. It can copy the current theme, but it is not the default. Instead,
> engrave-faces provides customization on how the faces should be
> re-mapped. Defaults are tuned to work for usual white backgrounds, but
> can be customized either using existing Emacs themes, or by hand,
> mapping Emacs faces to text colors and attributes.

It looks like engrave-faces already does a better job than htmlize.el,
and does it for LaTeX too, I see no drawback in using engrave-faces as
a replacement of htmlize.el.  Are there any?

-- 
 Bastien Guerry

Re: Htmlize support, maintenance, and Org mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> It looks like engrave-faces already does a better job than htmlize.el,
> and does it for LaTeX too, I see no drawback in using engrave-faces as
> a replacement of htmlize.el.  Are there any?

engrave-faces is technically in "beta".
(https://github.com/tecosaur/engrave-faces)
Also, we need to carefully study if there are any missing features
compared to htmlize.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Hrvoje Nikšić]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 913 bytes --]

>
> It seems to me it would be a good idea if Hrvoje gave one or more Org
> maintainer commit access to this repository.  Alternatively we could
> maintain it at https://github.com/emacsorphanage/htmlize, and I could
> take care of giving commit access, but in that case Hrvoje would also
> have to get involved briefly at least, to transfer the repository to
> that organization.
>

I'd be fine with transferring commit access to the repo. Writing and
maintaining htmlize was much fun, but although I still use Emacs for my
day-to-day work, I haven't done any elisp in many years now. At this point
it's clear that I won't be getting back to it any time soon, so it's time
to pass on the maintainership of htmlize to someone who will take good care
of it. Someone from org mode seems like a great choice for that.

Can we discuss the technical details in a separate email thread or ticket?

Kind regards,
Hrvoje

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Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Hrvoje Nikšić <hniksic@gmail.com> writes:

> Can we discuss the technical details in a separate email thread or ticket?

I opened an issue on github: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/47

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Hrvoje Nikšić]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 581 bytes --]

Thanks, will continue there.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 6:11 PM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:

> Hrvoje Nikšić <hniksic@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Can we discuss the technical details in a separate email thread or
> ticket?
>
> I opened an issue on github:
> https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/47
>
> --
> Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
> Org mode contributor,
> Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
> Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
> or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1279 bytes --]

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> So, we now have https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html

I just went through the list of packages mentioned there as being hosted
on https://github.com/emacsorphanage:

- org-grep should be delisted as it found a new home at
  https://sr.ht/~minshall/org-grep/

- ox-pandoc lists Alex Fenton @a-fent as an outside collaborator with
  admin rights

- org-page lists Kelvin Hu @sillykelvin as an outside collaborator with
  write access

- help-find-org-mode lists Eric Crosson as an outside collaborator with
  write access

IMO it would be a good idea if Bastien and/or Ihor joined the
emacsorphanage and explicitly added themselves to these packages as
admins.

I think I would have to make you owners of emacsorphanage to allow you
to do this and other useful things on your own.  I would happily give
you those rights.  You will know better than me who else should get
write access or even admin rights.  But I would ask you to not *delete*
any repositories before consulting with me.  Also, ping me after adding
a new repository.  How does that sound?

     Jonas

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

> I just went through the list of packages mentioned there as being hosted
> on https://github.com/emacsorphanage:

Thanks!

> - org-grep should be delisted as it found a new home at
>   https://sr.ht/~minshall/org-grep/

Fixed.
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/commit/667e1142

> - ox-pandoc lists Alex Fenton @a-fent as an outside collaborator with
>   admin rights
>
> - org-page lists Kelvin Hu @sillykelvin as an outside collaborator with
>   write access
>
> - help-find-org-mode lists Eric Crosson as an outside collaborator with
>   write access

What about https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard and
https://github.com/nikclayton/ob-sql-mode ?

Also, we might want to add org-json and org-redmine to
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html I may miss more org-related
repositories from emacsorphanage list.

> IMO it would be a good idea if Bastien and/or Ihor joined the
> emacsorphanage and explicitly added themselves to these packages as
> admins.
>
> I think I would have to make you owners of emacsorphanage to allow you
> to do this and other useful things on your own.  I would happily give
> you those rights.  You will know better than me who else should get
> write access or even admin rights.  But I would ask you to not *delete*
> any repositories before consulting with me.  Also, ping me after adding
> a new repository.  How does that sound?

That would make sense, yes.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> What about https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard and
> https://github.com/nikclayton/ob-sql-mode ?

Are you saying these packages are unmaintained and asking whether they
should be moved to the orphanage?

When I feel like that about a package, I usually open an issue on the
stale upstream repository and/or send the author an email, introducing
them to the orphanage, and offering them to do some light maintenance
there.

I try to avoid implying that this is the only or best option, pointing
out that it might make more sense to give commit access to people who
have made valuable contributions in the past.  That can go along with
creating a new "organization" for that repository, to make it more
visible, that this is now a team effort, but keeping the repository
under the user account of the original author is also an option.

Only when there are no volunteers do I actually prefer moving to the
repository to the orphanage.  The name of this organization is quite
apt: if there are packages in need, we offer to help out, but it is
of course always better if they find a new permanent home.

> Also, we might want to add org-json and org-redmine to
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html

Yes.

> I may miss more org-related repositories from emacsorphanage list.

As you probably have, I entered "org" and similar terms into the search
field at https://github.com/orgs/emacsorphanage/repositories and the
packages you just mentioned and the once that are already listed at
worg, is all I got.  But it is of course possible (though probably not
all that likely) that there are a few others in the orphanage that are
hiding better.

>> IMO it would be a good idea if Bastien and/or Ihor joined the
>> emacsorphanage and explicitly added themselves to these packages as
>> admins.
>>
>> I think I would have to make you owners of emacsorphanage to allow you
>> to do this and other useful things on your own.  I would happily give
>> you those rights.  You will know better than me who else should get
>> write access or even admin rights.  But I would ask you to not *delete*
>> any repositories before consulting with me.  Also, ping me after adding
>> a new repository.  How does that sound?
>
> That would make sense, yes.

Done (as you know, just a note to others who only read here).


As a side-note, the reason I don't want to delete repositories without
careful consideration, is that I want to preserve the existing issues
and pull-requests.  When a package finds a new home outside of github,
then we cannot migrate the existing issues there but they are still of
value, not least because they are mentioned in commit messages.  In the
future we might be able to migrate issues and such to other forges;
would be a shame if the data were lost by then.

(In a sense my Forge package can already be used for this.  It stores
this data in a local sqlite database, but that is intended for use by a
single, local, user.  It could be used for disaster recovery, but if the
plan is to publish the data, then it isn't the appropriate tool.)


Unmaintained packages frequently come up on Melpa, so we have documented
how we try to handle that.  A lot of what is being said there, also
applies when packages in need are brought up elsewhere.

https://github.com/melpa/melpa/wiki/Unmaintained-Packages-and-Forks.

Note in particular (picking up on a topic mentioned above):

> The new maintainer must have experience. E.g. maintains/contributes to
> an existing elisp package, has other visible community contributions,
> or can be vouched for by such a person.

When that is not the case, then it is preferable to move a package to
the orphanage, at least initially, and give the volunteer access there.
That way we maintain some control; IMO we have an obligation to do that.
We already had to make use of that control and revoke access a few times.

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Corwin Brust]

Hi all; I added worg co-curator krupalinbox to CC.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 8:41 AM Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> wrote:
>
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>
> > I may miss more org-related repositories from emacsorphanage list.
>
[SNIP]
>
> >> IMO it would be a good idea if Bastien and/or Ihor joined the
> >> emacsorphanage and explicitly added themselves to these packages as
> >> admins.
[SNIP]
>
> When that is not the case, then it is preferable to move a package to
> the orphanage, at least initially, and give the volunteer access there.
> That way we maintain some control; IMO we have an obligation to do that.
> We already had to make use of that control and revoke access a few times.
>

I would be happy to help with administration here.   I have a GitHub
account, as well as commit on bastian's sr.ht.

In fact, I wonder if worg curators should have some general
responsibilities to help with the orphanage.

Speaking for myself, I can help:
- send the various "let me know" emails discussed in this thread
- suggest packages that need love to (prospective) volunteers
- review the bonafides (experience/involvement and, via Eli/SM,
assignment status ) for prospective adopting maintainers
- assign permissions
- move repos
- apply well tested patches to orphaned packages

Of course, I understand and won't be offended should be more comfort
all around if Bastian and Igor take care of some or all of this
personally.

Irrespective of whether worg curators should help with this (or some
other vols, or just the org maintainers, or...), I think it would make
sense to document these "responsibilities" (and the detail of the
plans made in this thread, in general), along with the whos and hows.

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st> writes:

> Hi all; I added worg co-curator krupalinbox to CC.

I think you did not. I added him now.

> I would be happy to help with administration here.   I have a GitHub
> account, as well as commit on bastian's sr.ht.
>
> In fact, I wonder if worg curators should have some general
> responsibilities to help with the orphanage.
>
> Speaking for myself, I can help:
> - send the various "let me know" emails discussed in this thread

I am not sure if I understand. May you elaborate?

> - suggest packages that need love to (prospective) volunteers

Do you have any specific packages in mind?

> - review the bonafides (experience/involvement and, via Eli/SM,
> assignment status ) for prospective adopting maintainers

Not sure about emacsorphanage side, but for things we decide to manage
on sr.ht, we can all discuss new maintainers on this mailing list. The
maintenance requests should also go here.

We may need to update https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html,
similar to:

    Maintain an Org file: If a file in the git repository does not have a
    maintainer 1 and you want to help by maintaining it, please read more on
    how Org is maintained and let us know by sending an email to the mailing
    list.

but for orphaned packages specifically.

The information about how to apply to be a maintainer may also be added
to org-orphanage WORG page.

> - assign permissions
> - move repos
> - apply well tested patches to orphaned packages

I think you can participate in issue discussion for the existing
orphaned packages first. (The problem is that you do not have a record
contributing to Emacs/Org mode. I can only see two trivial commits
64d211179db and a70a3449417 in Emacs)

> Irrespective of whether worg curators should help with this (or some
> other vols, or just the org maintainers, or...), I think it would make
> sense to document these "responsibilities" (and the detail of the
> plans made in this thread, in general), along with the whos and hows.

+1

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Thanks for offering to help out Corwin!

>> Speaking for myself, I can help:
>> [...]
>> - review the bonafides (experience/involvement and, via Eli/SM,
>> assignment status ) for prospective adopting maintainers
>
> Not sure about emacsorphanage side, but for things we decide to manage
> on sr.ht, we can all discuss new maintainers on this mailing list. The
> maintenance requests should also go here.

The orphanage is often first brought up in the package's issue tracker,
or on Melpa's issue tracker.  Sometimes I bring it up, sometimes a user
of a package makes us aware of a stale package.

In general that makes sense, but for Org-related packages this mailing
list makes more sense (not least because it is read by people interested
in Org, i.e., potential future maintainers).

>> - assign permissions
>> - move repos
>> - apply well tested patches to orphaned packages
>
> I think you can participate in issue discussion for the existing
> orphaned packages first. (The problem is that you do not have a record
> contributing to Emacs/Org mode. I can only see two trivial commits
> 64d211179db and a70a3449417 in Emacs)

I only want to give far reaching permissions to people who have
maintained larger Emacs-related projects for a long time.

It's great that you are volunteering to do some work, but I am not
looking for more people to manage the whole project, just individual
packages.

If you are interested in that kind of work looked through the list of
orphaned packages for something that interests you and then offer to
maintain that.

>> - apply well tested patches to orphaned packages

If you see any pull-requests that you consider suitable for merge but
haven't gotten any response from any of the maintainers of the orphanage
or the volunteer who maintains the respective package, then feel free to
ping @emacsorphanage/core.

>> Irrespective of whether worg curators should help with this (or some
>> other vols, or just the org maintainers, or...), I think it would make
>> sense to document these "responsibilities" (and the detail of the
>> plans made in this thread, in general), along with the whos and hows.
>
> +1

I'll try collecting existing resources and maybe write some new ones,
but I have a lot on my plate, so this will likely take a while.

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

> Thanks for offering to help out Corwin!
>
>>> Speaking for myself, I can help:
>>> [...]
>>> - review the bonafides (experience/involvement and, via Eli/SM,
>>> assignment status ) for prospective adopting maintainers
>>
>> Not sure about emacsorphanage side, but for things we decide to manage
>> on sr.ht, we can all discuss new maintainers on this mailing list. The
>> maintenance requests should also go here.
>
> The orphanage is often first brought up in the package's issue tracker,
> or on Melpa's issue tracker.  Sometimes I bring it up, sometimes a user
> of a package makes us aware of a stale package.

How do you determine when to bring up the issue? If we have a clear
criterion, I can see how Corwin or other volunteers may help - by
contacting the package authors by email/on forge they use.

> If you are interested in that kind of work looked through the list of
> orphaned packages for something that interests you and then offer to
> maintain that.

That reminds me of Emacs survey. Since the best source of maintainers is
package's own user base, may it be a good idea to ask in Emacs survey if
people use some orphaned packages?

>>> Irrespective of whether worg curators should help with this (or some
>>> other vols, or just the org maintainers, or...), I think it would make
>>> sense to document these "responsibilities" (and the detail of the
>>> plans made in this thread, in general), along with the whos and hows.
>>
>> +1
>
> I'll try collecting existing resources and maybe write some new ones,
> but I have a lot on my plate, so this will likely take a while.

A draft might be prepared by volunteers. Will it make things easier for
you?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Ihor Radchenko]

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

>> What about https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard and
>> https://github.com/nikclayton/ob-sql-mode ?
>
> Are you saying these packages are unmaintained and asking whether they
> should be moved to the orphanage?

https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard page explicitly says that it is
looking for a new maintainer at least since 9 months ago. (The author is
in CC for this thread)

The author (also CCed) of https://github.com/nikclayton/ob-sql-mode
explicitly asked for help 8 months ago in
https://list.orgmode.org/CAKJTzL5bdw=vCBk0S9O3DFh2FkASro3m++wHqMhCp9ObaphSdg@mail.gmail.com/T/#u
We got no volunteers.

>> Also, we might want to add org-json and org-redmine to
>> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-orphanage.html
>
> Yes.

Done.
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/commit/494157f6

> Unmaintained packages frequently come up on Melpa, so we have documented
> how we try to handle that.  A lot of what is being said there, also
> applies when packages in need are brought up elsewhere.
>
> https://github.com/melpa/melpa/wiki/Unmaintained-Packages-and-Forks.

It will be a good idea to document these things in WORG as well. Under a
separate section in org-orphanage.org like "I want to volunteer
maintaining a package from this list".

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Alexis]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard page explicitly says 
> that it is
> looking for a new maintainer at least since 9 months ago. (The 
> author is
> in CC for this thread)

Indeed, and i've been actively following this discussion. :-)

i've only had one bite, in private, and that was from someone who 
wasn't particularly familiar with either Lisps or vCard, but who 
was offering to pitch in alongside me. i explained that it's not 
that i need an assistant, it's that i need a replacement, as i can 
no longer be a maintainer. (i've got so much on my life plate that 
i'm trying to wind back my volunteer ICT commitments to a 
relatively small core, including my man page ports, and random 
straightforward contributions involving few to no hoops.) The 
person felt they were not suitable for such a role.

Also, as a general note, i'm actually no longer using Org for 
contacts management, so i'm not even dogfooding org-vcard anymore.


Alexis.

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien Guerry]

Hi Jonas,

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

> IMO it would be a good idea if Bastien and/or Ihor joined the
> emacsorphanage and explicitly added themselves to these packages as
> admins.
>
> I think I would have to make you owners of emacsorphanage to allow you
> to do this and other useful things on your own.  I would happily give
> you those rights.  You will know better than me who else should get
> write access or even admin rights.  But I would ask you to not *delete*
> any repositories before consulting with me.  Also, ping me after adding
> a new repository.  How does that sound?

Sounds good to me too, I'm "bzg" on GitHub.  Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien Guerry

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Jonas Bernoulli]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Sounds good to me too, I'm "bzg" on GitHub.  Thanks!

Invitation sent.

Please make your "membership" public at
https://github.com/orgs/emacsorphanage/people.

Welcome!
    :D

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Bastien Guerry]

Jonas Bernoulli <jonas@bernoul.li> writes:

> Please make your "membership" public at
> https://github.com/orgs/emacsorphanage/people.

Done, thanks!

-- 
 Bastien Guerry

Re: [MAINTENANCE] Org orphanage?

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Dear all,
>
> This email is inspired by recent request by org-vcard maintainer to
> transfer maintenance to someone else:
> https://github.com/flexibeast/org-vcard
>
> As a part of Org project (https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/), we currently have
> https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/org-contrib/:
>
>    org-contrib: Contributed packages to Org in search for new maintainers.
>
> There, we do a very minimal maintenance and encourage people to take
> over the containing packages.
>
> Should we extend the org-contrib's current idea to other Org-related
> packages that are seeking a maintainer? Similar to
> https://github.com/emacsorphanage
>
> We may temporarily use Org mailing list as a place to report bugs.
>
> - This will give a better chance for interested people to contribute,
>   and hopefully take over the work on abandoned packages.
>
> - We can also guarantee some (very) minimal maintenance.
>
> - And it will promote Org mailing list as a place to discuss Org-related
>   staff.
>
> WDYT?

I think it is an excellent idea. A rename to something like
org-orphanage would also be good as it makes the status of these
packages much clearer and may encourage adoption of those packages
people find useful.