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[2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:1c30:5b24:a78:6bff]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y23sm3292143pgf.86.2021.12.08.13.48.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Dec 2021 13:48:24 -0800 (PST) References: <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> <87o85vbb9a.fsf@localhost> <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87ilw3419x.fsf@gmail.com> <87o85v9la3.fsf@localhost> <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> <87zgpbuktz.fsf@web.de> <87lf0uvq9s.fsf@web.de> User-agent: mu4e 1.7.5; emacs 28.0.90 From: Tim Cross To: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2021 08:25:35 +1100 In-reply-to: <87lf0uvq9s.fsf@web.de> Message-ID: <87pmq6u5sr.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42f (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::42f; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x42f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1639000156; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=byg10mesHkbyPlhjVN3gjHBV03P2OiY2y8893nwhFKA=; b=AL1gYR+LyS6sEUqL8mR49LtsGeXsqFSCIcHmpY3xEkksw1PcejRfR57s7kPK8e5lo3SZ46 tWcQ5FdgaNq5FqXSu9dhWPlmYkXRGj3eJWm08+8Xx6eAiRzDye0J3cijpFKcGTmIaIUkpc 0bF2i7KL88S7WKQpRpROFAz5n/7OgKrrRGnyC5dUskJ+VRwIAnePe3lk9+h+IxldGUzr4x 7KvssA+8FQGUY7c+3pLXVI4+oXmFQRQNnlBrnAAf8KYvu1E7ZPaHMQjImlc0wmFvc6OuH+ PJ0bbv15vxpkTtl9cpAtVn0fvVovhqwASRbU0xuDgdqC+5WT3rUS8sxKb6ttYQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1639000156; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kw/I4ineJY9GYXtyebfYhrGvXcv/bXNw1imWq1BjRrG2RGsT00Qt3tfQjHo3l+ivpcrGNf MfI14hxE2MW3dl8ksl45JjToIqvxvJS+p9cYzgpnf+Rs4omF/5HcrUe8bK4mhpvX0LFaWh 4L+BF8tFm2UU7OpxPimrFF5J9UsGp20qauLitNYruyHqua8GM6Reby3gjhdqeYXejQ7lCv vfQLXaXBkYOVD9Mmls3XFfHCf0vQx61yHOXM/BcP/EuKcZyvtOsQHqz7kgKLgtaKQDKzSa zOew8HGYkFwikzehth/Wc0TBrRR/M3aeC2YaUT0LvSmHC5tVn2DjKXAjbv0+eg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=ep9KLWHs; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.85 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=ep9KLWHs; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9D09DA9AA X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 05mgi8mAU3tZ "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > > Russell Adams writes: > >> On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 05:16:20PM +0100, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrot= e: >>> >>> Tim Cross writes: >>> > To date, I only had a bigger problem once (and that hurt a lot, because > it was just before giving a lecture, so I had to ditch most of the > improvements I wanted to do and instead spend all the time fixing the > document), but the talk here about =E2=80=9Csometimes you have to break > compatibility=E2=80=9D goes into a direction I consider as very dangerous. > > Please do not make org-mode volatile.=C2=B9 > > Org-Mode and Emacs have mostly been stable the past 15 years. And it is > good to be stable; a strength that is highlighted much too seldomly. > Nobody is suggesting we make org-mode volatile. However, it expect that there will never be breaking change is idealistic. I cannot think of a single piece of software which hasn't at some point had some level of breaking change.=20 As I stated in my post, backwards compatibility is important and no breaking change should be taken lightly. However, at times, it is necessary and cannot be avoided. It might even be outside org-mode's control - for example, a breaking change in Emacs might result in the need for a change in org-mode or a security vulnerability might be discovered which cannot be fixed without a breaking change. Change is inevitable. It cannot be prevented. All we can do is try to mitigate the impact of that change as best we can. Of course you also have the choice to avoid such changes simply by not upgrading. While this will mean you don't get bug fixes or enhancements, it is really the only way to guarantee your documents are not impacted. I think org-mode has a pretty good track record. There have been breaking changes, but those changes have been in the main, justified and never done lightly. They have bene documented and included in the NEWS file and org has provided tools like rog-lint and conversion functions to help with the transition required for such change. Change is inevitable and sometimes, breaking change cannot be avoided. It is a fact of life we have to deal with. As developers, we need to try and ensure the impact from change is as minimal as possible and when it is inevitable, we implement the change in a planned manner which tries to reduce that impact (communication, conversion facilities and conversion functions, stage implementation, deprecation periods etc). What really doesn't help is to immediately jump to extremes and start talking about making something volatile just because change is mentioned.