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[2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:b2a4:98c2:11aa:1b70]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x9sm10094399pjq.50.2021.12.05.05.27.29 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 05:27:30 -0800 (PST) References: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost> <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> User-agent: mu4e 1.7.5; emacs 28.0.90 From: Tim Cross To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 00:06:03 +1100 In-reply-to: <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> Message-ID: <87mtlf41xc.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::434 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::434; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x434.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638710921; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=f1NZOa/69Z83NP9fmYQvM97LyMyuZGtP7XVjyYQV03s=; b=rGDYEQxS6CPMS4adrKbnlAf+Hp68GHAwe18K06Igl6n1nRt8Q5euHFZ52fG4p5Cvj4iKuE JITHwswcmGMBYDC3xTFR/+StyvVRRpDKssdBUuKKlqTwJrJG2eY2BTUrNdM2/NnOeG5K+b WHTfn1VLqvKNAzg1/Hcpgr61BZ/u+MvopCGHhg0uzT6gODqAgnenAzsO5j1rMLVoxxGRjj n8eVy2dTfHyrAy7zsvbI3vu8o22QWp1EYMSiNW5D7lAlPUQFxaeZjTK4Y+xLdRQLO5VHQM FTdyHCEqyr86GyhU6vJfOAq1xBf77Tr6G0jD146hGG8VOAjknZ89Jbzj4PtwTg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638710921; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=KMj08EYbc/ebbQTV4cYn2+atscSqVdyPVNcxXDTka/7D4TPHmwpZlSlIqI26EyVeAlG5QG kUEerWFjPY3/Iws7fvlk89RLL3ouCs2PVfO//UUvP2JZMJ418s/sMspUGUfp/gQMzrwRqK +nZv2WbQy71Md7uv9+D8sBqjgvoRHRZqF1zDz/KsMiTGEL4hv9Dz+b5ZhIktqaxiEZEqB8 zdtz5yH2XKez+Hv8Oksh2uQ+d6YCHW0KcPcvwv+j3hhtXaDuVVV5g50kdD18DM91e7v8S4 3ps/lg17UvcZm4kRs9Utxn8DFzZ6OsnEiHTDH3ECMlg5u9mMcg19Z9XIhGRwmw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=OWfBFb+T; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=OWfBFb+T; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CB793FFEB X-Spam-Score: -4.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: aEhR4hk2zvEc Juan Manuel Mac=C3=ADas writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> The website title is "Org mode for Emacs", repelling users who _do >> not want_ to use Org inside Emacs. Maybe we can do better? Something >> with less accent on Emacs like "Org mode: your life in plain text" > > I am not at all in favor of separating the 'Org Mode' name from 'GNU Emac= s'. > In any case, regardless of my opinion, I see here two problems: > > 1. "Org mode: your life in plain text". The word "mode" remains orphan: > mode of what? It is clear that it is an Emacs mode, therefore it doesn't > make much sense to hide Emacs and then suggest it. > > 2. One possibility: "Org: your life in plain text". But here what > remains orphaned is "Org", too generic name. Unless "Org Mode" is a > lexicalized construct, without reference to any emacs mode. > > (In any case, I would be extremely saddened if the reference to GNU Emacs > disappears in the title, just to please a minority). > There is another big issue which people are not considering. Org mode is a GNU project and it is part of Emacs. This actually has some consequences, most notably - - It is not acceptable for the project to explicitly or implicitly recommend or appear to recommend any non-free solutions or provide support for non-free software. Products like Github and MS Visual Code fall squarely in the unacceptable bucket. - It would not be possible to reference any 3rd party libraries or programs which are not free software in the proposed list of external tools - The suggested org mode in a browser example is unlikely to be acceptable to the FSF (or RMS). The FSF is very much against cloud based computing services or any web service which uses non-free Javascript (which is most of them and one of the many reasons Github is discouraged by the FSF). A number of the ideas proposed are good ideas for org mode generally - for example, a repository of reference documents which could be used for testing purposes would be extremely useful for org-mode development and testing. Likewise, any effort to clarify the syntax and remove any ambiguities is beneficial for org mode itself. However, the emphasis and priority needs to remain focused on org mode as a mode for Emacs. The use of org mode by other external programs is really outside (but related) to the project. As a consequence and to eliminate/remove potential conflicts with FSF philosophy and goals, it may be worth considering spinning off a separate project. which happens to use the same markup syntax, but is not a GNU project (though it would be good to still be GPL'd).=20 If you want ot get a feel for the sort of issues which could come up when trying to develop/support 3rd party tools, have a look at the recent thread on creating an LSP server for emacs-lisp. While I personally disagree with most of the fears raised by some contributors to that thread and disagree with RMS's view that such a server would not be in the best interests of Emacs, the thread does give you a sample of the sort of issues which could come up with efforts to support or encourage 3rd party libraries for org markup, much of which could be avoided if the work is clearly not part of, related to or supported by the main org-mode project.=20