Splitting mailing list

Splitting mailing list

[Julien Danjou]

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Hi,

There's really a lot of trafic here, and it's more and more diffcult to
me to follow development related threads in all the usage realted
threads.

How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list?

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Bastien]

Hi Julien,

Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:

> How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list?

I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list.

The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is
a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing.

What other people think?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Julien Danjou]

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On Sun, Feb 27 2011, Bastien wrote:

> I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list.

This is not something automatic, so this is not something everyone will
do. I won't think about it most of time and will forget, so…

> The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is
> a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing.

Your own vision of Org is probably that, so you'd subscribe to both
list. I personally do not have enough time to care about users problems
nor their features complaints for now, so spending time with
developement subject only and not having to filter out usage related
thread would make me gain an amount of time that I could spend on
hacking Org.

This is not something I'd propose on a low trafic list, but the number
of mails here is getting bigger and bigger, and it's hard for me as a
developer (and not as a maintainer like you) to just follow the stream
of subject I am interested into (i.e. developement of Org).

If some developers (like you) have more time to follow users subjects,
nothing stop you to read both lists.

At this point of trafic rate, not splitting is mostly killing people
like me. :)

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Gour]

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On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:09:04 +0100
Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> wrote:

> This is not something I'd propose on a low trafic list, but the number
> of mails here is getting bigger and bigger, and it's hard for me as a
> developer (and not as a maintainer like you) to just follow the stream
> of subject I am interested into (i.e. developement of Org).

I agree...atm I'd like to follow users-list only and traffic so big,
that most of the time I just skip over threads.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
“In the material world, conceptions of good and bad are
all mental speculations…” (Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu)

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: CDBF17CA



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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Matthew Sauer]

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Even though I am not much into development I enjoy reading them as they are
teaching me about how this works and hopefully I can move to doing DEV
further down the road.

Even if we had two lists I would just add a filter tag like I do now and
sort them all into the same tag (well, maybe, maybe not).   Maybe the
DEV channel should be something that you are invited to join with send
access but anyone could have read access too.  If a question in the user
channel fit the bill it could be resent or re-proposed into the DEV channel?
 Maybe that's too constricted for open development?

I agree, two channels so you can get what you want but they need to have
reference to each other and at least a few people on both.

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 5:43 AM, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:

> Hi Julien,
>
> Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:
>
> > How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list?
>
> I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list.
>
> The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is
> a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing.
>
> What other people think?
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Chris Thompson]

Julien Danjou <julien <at> danjou.info> writes:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> There's really a lot of trafic here, and it's more and more diffcult to
> me to follow development related threads in all the usage realted
> threads.
> 
> How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list?
> 

I would prefer a split along different lines... A core Org mailing list
(including Dev posts) and a separate Org-Babel mailing list. 

It appears that a solid majority of the posts in the current mailing list are
Babel-related, and this is a very distinct subset of functionality that could
easily and cleanly be split into its own list. Plus, it makes sense... not every
Org user uses Babel.

-- Chris

Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Julien Danjou]

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On Sun, Feb 27 2011, Chris Thompson wrote:

> It appears that a solid majority of the posts in the current mailing list are
> Babel-related, and this is a very distinct subset of functionality that could
> easily and cleanly be split into its own list. Plus, it makes sense... not every
> Org user uses Babel.

Not sure splitting by feature is going to be a good first choice for
spliting.

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Alan L Tyree]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:43:59 +0100
Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:

> Hi Julien,
> 
> Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:
> 
> > How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development
> > list?
> 
> I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list.
> 
> The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is
> a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing.
> 
> What other people think?

I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list. I
find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are
doing, where org is headed. Use of a DEV tag would be good.

Cheers,
Alan



> 
> -- 
>  Bastien
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Jeff Horn]

If the lists were split, I likely would have never submitted my first
patch. I've learned more about programming and computing from the
org-mode list than any other list. I'm in favor of the status quo.

I make heavy use of mail tags. I almost always delete [PATCH] mails
immediately, and pay special attention to [babel] mails, since I'm
starting to use it more heavily.

With modern filters and thread scoring, splitting may not be that
beneficial on the whole.

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:43 AM, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
> Hi Julien,
>
> Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:
>
>> How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list?
>
> I am in favor of using a [DEV] tag and stick to one single list.
>
> The path from users to developers (and to core Org developers) is
> a continuum, keeping this continuum on one list is a good thing.
>
> What other people think?
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>



-- 
Jeffrey Horn
http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Jeff Horn]

On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Jeff Horn <jrhorn424@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the lists were split, I likely would have never submitted my first
> patch. I've learned more about programming and computing from the
> org-mode list than any other list. I'm in favor of the status quo.

I fired off the e-mail before reading other responses. I should point
out that while Julien is right that Devs can read the user list as
well, I'm not certain that users would read the dev list if they were
split. I certainly avoided most dev discussions on other lists, but
I've learned a lot from org-mode. But, I'm only one data point...

> With modern filters and thread scoring, splitting may not be that
> beneficial on the whole.

Again, I spoke prematurely. Is it possible to funnel dev traffic to
the user list, so subscriptions look like this?

| mail source | mail receipt       |
|-------------+--------------------|
| dev list    | dev and user lists |
| user list   | user list          |

-- 
Jeffrey Horn
http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Samuel Wales]

The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost
never can read the entire subject header.  Often I get to read only
the first word.  Tags will make that worse.

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Andrew J. Korty]

Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list.
> I find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are
> doing, where org is headed.  Use of a DEV tag would be good.

I don't understand.  If you like to read the development posts, why not
subscribe to both lists?  My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold: people
would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line.

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:

> The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost
> never can read the entire subject header.  Often I get to read only
> the first word.  Tags will make that worse.

It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org].  That
seems like a change everyone can agree with.  Could one of the mailing
list admins please make that change?

Thanks,
ajk

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Alan L Tyree]

On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:53:44 -0500
"Andrew J. Korty" <ajk@iu.edu> wrote:

> Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the
> > list. I find it interesting to have an insight into what the
> > developers are doing, where org is headed.  Use of a DEV tag would
> > be good.
> 
> I don't understand.  If you like to read the development posts, why
> not subscribe to both lists?  My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold:
> people would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line.

The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense
interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in
this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored. 

I take your point about the tags, however. No happy answer to any of
this.

Cheers,
Alan

> 
> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost
> > never can read the entire subject header.  Often I get to read only
> > the first word.  Tags will make that worse.
> 
> It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org].
> That seems like a change everyone can agree with.  Could one of the
> mailing list admins please make that change?
> 
> Thanks,
> ajk
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> 


-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Matthew Sauer]

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I think that if it was kept as a single list the use of tags could allow (as
long as people respect the tags) to filter and read only the types of
threads they want to use.

If we split the lists I would tag both with the same tag in my gmail box and
read them all together, so it wouldn't really appear to be any different for
me other than the people only reading dev tags or on the dev channel
wouldn't see the user discussions.



On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:53:44 -0500
> "Andrew J. Korty" <ajk@iu.edu> wrote:
>
> > Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the
> > > list. I find it interesting to have an insight into what the
> > > developers are doing, where org is headed.  Use of a DEV tag would
> > > be good.
> >
> > I don't understand.  If you like to read the development posts, why
> > not subscribe to both lists?  My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold:
> > people would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line.
>
> The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense
> interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in
> this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored.
>
> I take your point about the tags, however. No happy answer to any of
> this.
>
> Cheers,
> Alan
>
> >
> > Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost
> > > never can read the entire subject header.  Often I get to read only
> > > the first word.  Tags will make that worse.
> >
> > It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org].
> > That seems like a change everyone can agree with.  Could one of the
> > mailing list admins please make that change?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > ajk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >
>
>
> --
> Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
> Tel:  04 2748 6206
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Nick Dokos]

Andrew J. Korty <ajk@iu.edu> wrote:

> Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm purely a user, but I would not be in favour of splitting the list.
> > I find it interesting to have an insight into what the developers are
> > doing, where org is headed.  Use of a DEV tag would be good.
> 
> I don't understand.  If you like to read the development posts, why not
> subscribe to both lists?  My concerns with a DEV tag are twofold: people
> would forget to add it, and it clutters the subject line.
> 

Agreed.

> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost
> > never can read the entire subject header.  Often I get to read only
> > the first word.  Tags will make that worse.
> 
> It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org].  That
> seems like a change everyone can agree with.  Could one of the mailing
> list admins please make that change?
> 

Agreed - even though I was probably the most vocal opponent of dropping the
tag altogether, I have no problem with making it shorter.

[Org] looks fine for the current list and if the dev list comes to pass
it could perhaps get an [OrgD] tag (or even [OD]: overdosing on org is a
good thing...)

Thanks,
Nick

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Alan L Tyree wrote:

> The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense
> interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in
> this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored. 

No, really, it's not that unique. And many project still works correctly
with several mailing list.

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Alan Tyree]

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On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Alan L Tyree wrote:
>
> > The development list wouldn't be very interesting without the intense
> > interaction that it now has with users. The org list seems unique in
> > this, at least for the lists that I have sometimes monitored.
>
> No, really, it's not that unique. And many project still works correctly
> with several mailing list.
>

I know that most projects work this way, and I am sure that Org would
survive and prosper no matter what the decision is here. I still say, of the
lists that I have monitored (not many - I am a retired Law Professor with
only a slight knowledge of software development) the Org list is the most
interesting.

It's just a personal preference - I don't see any decisive argument for any
of the possible decisions on splitting the list.

Whatever happens, many thanks to all the Org developers for some great
software.

Cheers,
Alan


>
> --
> Julien Danjou
> ❱ http://julien.danjou.info
>



-- 
Alan L Tyree                    http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206

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Re: Splitting mailing list

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi,

the same discussion was started a few month ago.
Basically, at that time there was quickly some argument to drop
[Orgmode] tag in the subject and try to reduce the tags to a certain amount.
Basically, I can't see any logical reason to keep [Orgmode] since this 
is a org-mode list. Esp., nowadays people read mails on small screens on 
there mobile devices. E.g., the subject line on my android phone is 
nearly eaten up entirely by [Orgmode][babel], makes it very difficult to 
follow the list.  Others argued they use it to separate quickly between 
different mailing list.
Maybe shorten it to [OM] and introduce [DEV] to mark topics dev for 
development.

However, I agree that splitting the list makes no differences to people 
who subscribe to both lists.


Just some more points to think about

Torsten



On 02/27/2011 07:30 PM, Julien Danjou wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There's really a lot of trafic here, and it's more and more diffcult to
> me to follow development related threads in all the usage realted
> threads.
>
> How about splitting the mailing list in a user and a development list?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Bastien]

Hi Andrew,

"Andrew J. Korty" <ajk@iu.edu> writes:

> It was suggested once that we shorten the [Orgmode] tag to [Org].  That
> seems like a change everyone can agree with.  Could one of the mailing
> list admins please make that change?

I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O].  

This is short and unambiguous enough.

Thanks for the reminder.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Bastien]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost
> never can read the entire subject header.  Often I get to read only
> the first word.  Tags will make that worse.

I hope the switch from [Orgmode] to [O] will make things easier for you.

-- 
 Bastien

Let's stick to one list for now (was: Splitting mailing list)

[Bastien]

Dear all,

thanks all for your input.

Let's stick to one list for now, and let's try to use the [DEV] tag for
emails that only target development.  It's not automatic and people will
forget sometimes, but on the overrall this will improve the readability
of the list, for both developers and users.

Right now developers can already focus on emails with [PATCH] tag and on
the patchwork here:

  http://patchwork.newartisans.com/project/org-mode/list/

Julien, I guess your life would be easier if you get push access to the
Org repo and an account on the patchwork -- so that you can test patches
and improve them if needed.

Would that be okay for you?

This decision is not carved in stone -- but I'm about to release Org 7.5
and I don't want to undertake a mailing list split in the middle of this
process.

Let's see how things go till Org 7.6 and raise the question if that's an
issue again by then.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Let's stick to one list for now

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:

The point is that there's no gain in telling people to add "[DEV]" since
they will forget (I will), and there is _no_ lose by splitting a list. I
already splitted user list in some project and nothing bad happened. :)

> Julien, I guess your life would be easier if you get push access to the
> Org repo and an account on the patchwork -- so that you can test patches
> and improve them if needed.
>
> Would that be okay for you?

Well, access to the patchwork will at least allow me to contrate and
work on dev things that have a patch, for sure.

> This decision is not carved in stone -- but I'm about to release Org 7.5
> and I don't want to undertake a mailing list split in the middle of this
> process.

I understand that.

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
> I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O].  

Couldn't you just drop it?

Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous.

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Bastien]

Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:

> On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
>> I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O].  
>
> Couldn't you just drop it?
>
> Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous.

No, it's useful to people who filter emails through the subject line.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:
>
>> On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
>>> I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O].  
>>
>> Couldn't you just drop it?
>>
>> Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous.
>
> No, it's useful to people who filter emails through the subject line.

And more screen estate in the subject line for people with accessibility
issues that are forced to use bigger fonts.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Julien Danjou]

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On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:

> No, it's useful to people who filter emails through the subject line.

It would be better to teach these people this is not a good practice
rather than polluting the subject lines for everybody…

-- 
Julien Danjou
❱ http://julien.danjou.info

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_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Ian Barton]

>> The thing that is most difficult for me is the fact that I almost
>> never can read the entire subject header.  Often I get to read only
>> the first word.  Tags will make that worse.
>
> I hope the switch from [Orgmode] to [O] will make things easier for you.
>

Since we now have a single letter [O] for the main mailing list, 
wouldn't it make sense to use [D] for devel and [B] for Babel. Less 
visual clutter and better on small screens.

Ian.

Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Nick Dokos]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:

> Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:
> 
> > On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
> >> I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O].  
> >
> > Couldn't you just drop it?
> >
> > Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous.
> 
Not to me.

> No, it's useful to people who filter emails through the subject line.
> 

Just to clarify my usage (since I was one of the people who
argued for keeping a tag): I don't have an MUA filter for this (that
would be easy enough to change) - the filter is my eyes: if I have time
to spend on org-mode, I will look at an email tagged [Orgmode] [fn:1]
If not, I skip it. If there is no distinguishing characteristic at this
level, I have to resort to other methods just to see whether the email
is relevant to me at this time (usually the author name is enough to
classify the email correctly, but not always of course, in which case
I might have to read (some of) the email to decide.) The tag saves me
time.

I sympathise with Samuel's reasons for maximizing information, hence I
did not oppose the shortening of the tag. But this is the second time
that I have had to defend keeping the tag and I hope that the rest of
you will sympathise with my reasons for keeping the tag.

Thanks,
Nick

Footnotes:

[fn:1] or [Org] or [O] - I would have preferred [Org] but I'm willing to
live with [O].

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Samuel Wales]

[O] is *much* better than [Orgmode].  Thank you.

Looking forward to [OD] and [OB], if that's what we will use.

Re: Let's stick to one list for now

[Eric Schulte]

Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:

> On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
>
> The point is that there's no gain in telling people to add "[DEV]" since
> they will forget (I will),

I disagree, [babel] tags have been working very well for some time now,
even if the original poster forgets to add such a tag it often appears
in subsequent replies.

> and there is _no_ lose by splitting a list. I already splitted user
> list in some project and nothing bad happened. :)
>

Again, I disagree.  It is not clear what effect splitting would have on
the list, and I doubt that there is a clean partition between dev and
non-dev for many individual emails (not to mention entire threads).

Best -- Eric

Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: [O] Let's stick to one list for now

[Eric Schulte]

While there are changes to the administration of the mailing list.
Would it be difficult to change the list signature from

: _______________________________________________
: Emacs-orgmode mailing list
: Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
: Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
: http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

to

: __ 
: Emacs-orgmode mailing list
: Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
: Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
: http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

(note the space after the double hyphen) at the beginning of the second
signature.  I /believe/ (but don't have any reference) that the "-- "
string is the standard signature delimiter, and it would result in at
least gnus, and probably other mailing agents, stripping the signature
from replies by default.

This isn't a huge deal, but it would reduce message noise on long
threads.

Best -- Eric

Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[John Hendy]

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On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:14 AM, Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> wrote:

> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
>
> > Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:
> >
> > > On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
> > >> I changed the [Orgmode] tag to [O].
> > >
> > > Couldn't you just drop it?
> > >
> > > Seriously, this [O] is useless and ridiculous.
> >
> Not to me.
>
>
Me either.

The emails from this mailing list along account for 80% of my daily emails.
With a tag and using gmail shortcuts, I can go down the list pressing j for
next message and x to select it as I skim the titles to see if anything
strikes me as of interest. When I have them all, I scan the senders and
subjects once more to catch any accidental selections and then press # to
delete. It would suck to actually read every subject to interpret it as
mailing list or not *and* also be deciding if I wanted to open it.

With the tag I just look for keywords like babel, beamer, lists, etc. to see
if I think I'm interested. Mostly... I'm not.


>
> [fn:1] or [Org] or [O] - I would have preferred [Org] but I'm willing to
> live with [O].
>

Yeah, [O] seems weird to me even though there's nothing really wrong with
it... I like [Org] more :)


John


>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Let's stick to one list for now

[Dan Davison]

Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:

> On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
>
> The point is that there's no gain in telling people to add "[DEV]" since
> they will forget (I will), and there is _no_ lose by splitting a list. I

Hi Julien,

No, I disagree with that. The two lists would have distinct compositions of the
reader audience and that does have downsides. For example,

- Those participating in a USER thread cannot rely to the same extent on
  DEVs listening, or as easily direct comments to DEVs, without messy
  cross-postings. DEV threads often start life as USER threads; that
  trajectory would be disrupted.

- The probability of pure USERs learning DEV skills is reduced, since
  they have to actively seek the DEV list. I'm another one who came to
  Org as a USER with no abilities in elisp programming.

Dan




> already splitted user list in some project and nothing bad happened. :)
>
>> Julien, I guess your life would be easier if you get push access to the
>> Org repo and an account on the patchwork -- so that you can test patches
>> and improve them if needed.
>>
>> Would that be okay for you?
>
> Well, access to the patchwork will at least allow me to contrate and
> work on dev things that have a patch, for sure.
>
>> This decision is not carved in stone -- but I'm about to release Org 7.5
>> and I don't want to undertake a mailing list split in the middle of this
>> process.
>
> I understand that.

Re: Let's stick to one list for now

[Jambunathan K]

> DEV threads often start life as USER threads; 

For example, org-odt.el. 

Jambunathan K.

Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Nicolas]

Hello,

"Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:

> While there are changes to the administration of the mailing list.
> Would it be difficult to change the list signature from
>
> : _______________________________________________
> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> to
>
> : __ 
> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> (note the space after the double hyphen) at the beginning of the second
> signature.  I /believe/ (but don't have any reference) that the "-- "
> string is the standard signature delimiter, and it would result in at
> least gnus, and probably other mailing agents, stripping the signature
> from replies by default.

For that particular problem, I have

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(setq gnus-parameters
  '(("string_matching_orgmode_list_folder"
     (banner . "_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode"))))
#+end_src

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas

Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Eric Schulte]

Nicolas <n.goaziou@gmail.com> writes:

> Hello,
>
> "Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> While there are changes to the administration of the mailing list.
>> Would it be difficult to change the list signature from
>>
>> : _______________________________________________
>> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> to
>>
>> : __ 
>> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> (note the space after the double hyphen) at the beginning of the second
>> signature.  I /believe/ (but don't have any reference) that the "-- "
>> string is the standard signature delimiter, and it would result in at
>> least gnus, and probably other mailing agents, stripping the signature
>> from replies by default.
>
> For that particular problem, I have
>
> #+begin_src emacs-lisp
> (setq gnus-parameters
>   '(("string_matching_orgmode_list_folder"
>      (banner . "_______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode"))))
> #+end_src
>

Thanks Nicolas, I'll add that to my gnus config now -- Eric

Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Konrad Hinsen]

On 28 Feb 2011, at 18:05, Samuel Wales wrote:

> [O] is *much* better than [Orgmode].  Thank you.
>
> Looking forward to [OD] and [OB], if that's what we will use.

Plus [OS], for discussions about splitting the mailing list.

Konrad

PS: Don't worry, this is my last post on this topic!

Re: Let's stick to one list for now

[Jeff Horn]

On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 12:53 PM, Dan Davison <dandavison7@gmail.com> wrote:
> Julien Danjou <julien@danjou.info> writes:
>
>> On Mon, Feb 28 2011, Bastien wrote:
>>
>> The point is that there's no gain in telling people to add "[DEV]" since
>> they will forget (I will), and there is _no_ lose by splitting a list. I
>
> Hi Julien,
>
> No, I disagree with that. The two lists would have distinct compositions of the
> reader audience and that does have downsides. For example,

I would also like to re-emphasize my disagreement with Julien's
opinion. There is something to lose by splitting the list, as I
mentioned in the main thread: the mixture was entirely useful for me,
and *quite* pedagogical. I think the readership would be asymmetric in
the case of a split list. Research in behavioral economics suggests
people should be given sane defaults to prevent a harmful status quo
bias. I don't think most users ever attempt to read devel lists.

I'd also like to register a theory as to why users don't read devel
lists, and why this works for some other software: devs condescend to
handle user issues. Most open source software is created by people who
need the tool for personal use. They aren't necessarily interested in
your corner cases. For org-mode, this isn't the case; I've never felt
anything but welcomed by the people who usually develop. A split list
might also hurt this natural connection devs have with org-mode users.

Relationships are *especially* important where there aren't market
forces (read: price) to discipline developers into listening to users
demands. That's the truth about any platform (two-sided) market with a
zero price.

This may sound admittedly contrived, and a bit pumped up in regard to
the size of the effect. But there is a difference between small,
noticeable, and highly personal changes and a "_no_ lose" scenario.
Top-down policies have to be made with these small effects in mind,
with an eye toward unintended consequences of a change.

(Strawman alert. Begging Julien's pardon...)

"But," Julien might say, "my concerns count just as much as yours, and
I don't really like managing all this user mail." That is true. But
you are a power user and have many tools at your disposal to automate
mail handling. There is a relatively easy end solution. A top-down
change messes with the community ecosystem. Future users' concerns
should count for something, even if not a full measure.

-- 
Jeffrey Horn
http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/

Re: Splitting mailing list

[Eric S Fraga]

Matthew Sauer <improv.philosophy@gmail.com> writes:

> I think that if it was kept as a single list the use of tags could allow (as
> long as people respect the tags) to filter and read only the types of
> threads they want to use.
>
> If we split the lists I would tag both with the same tag in my gmail box and
> read them all together, so it wouldn't really appear to be any different for
> me other than the people only reading dev tags or on the dev channel
> wouldn't see the user discussions.

I'm happy either way as I am interested in all org related emails.  If
split, I would see no difference in the end: the emails from the two
lists would end up back in the same list for me as I use filtering (gnus
splitting to be precise) to distribute my many emails automatically to
their appropriate folders.

However, I don't think the volume in this list is that large, assuming
readers are using smart mail tools. Especially with threading, it's
relatively easy to delete or ignore whole threads at once if they are
not of interest.  Not that I do that very often with org threads, mind
you ;-)

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.553.g83b7.dirty)

Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: [O] Let's stick to one list for now

[theo]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 28/02/2011 18:09, Eric Schulte wrote:
> 
> (but don't have any reference) that the "-- "
> string is the standard signature delimiter, and it would result in at
> least gnus, and probably other mailing agents, stripping the signature
> from replies by default.

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3676#section-4.3

*4.3.  Usenet Signature Convention*

   There is a long-standing convention in Usenet news which also
   commonly appears in Internet mail of using "-- " as the separator
   line between the body and the signature of a message.

[...]

   A receiving agent needs to test for a signature line both before the
   test for a quoted line (see Section 4.5) and also after logically
   counting and deleting quote marks and stuffing (see Section 4.4) from
   a quoted line.
- -- 
Freely yours,
theo
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Re: Re: Splitting mailing list

[Bastien]

Hi Nick,

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> But this is the second time that I have had to defend keeping the tag
> and I hope that the rest of you will sympathise with my reasons for
> keeping the tag.

Be reassured: at least I do.  Hope we can move forward now. 

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Let's stick to one list for now

[Bastien]

Another issue with splitting is the problem of archiving.

Looking for problems, solutions, hacks and code in one single mailing
list has proven very useful so far -- I want to keep that.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: [O] Let's stick to one list for now

[Bastien]

Hi Eric,

"Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:

> While there are changes to the administration of the mailing list.
> Would it be difficult to change the list signature from
>
> : _______________________________________________
> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> to
>
> : __ 
> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Done -- except that I used "-- ", not "__ ".

"-- " is the standard separator for signatures.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

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Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: [O] Let's stick to one list for now

[Eric Schulte]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Hi Eric,
>
> "Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> While there are changes to the administration of the mailing list.
>> Would it be difficult to change the list signature from
>>
>> : _______________________________________________
>> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> to
>>
>> : __ 
>> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> Done -- except that I used "-- ", not "__ ".
>
> "-- " is the standard separator for signatures.
>

Ah yes, "-- " is what I meant to send.  Thanks -- Eric

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Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Nicolas]

Hello,

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

>> While there are changes to the administration of the mailing list.
>> Would it be difficult to change the list signature from
>>
>> : _______________________________________________
>> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> to
>>
>> : __ 
>> : Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> : Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> : Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> : http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> Done -- except that I used "-- ", not "__ ".
>
> "-- " is the standard separator for signatures.

It may be too late, but I don't think it is an adequate solution.
A banner isn't a signature, but now, they look the same, regexp wise.
And as signatures are searched from bottom to top, the banner, being the
first in that order, will be found first.

Thus, now, the banner will be fontified like a signature instead of the
real one. If you try to hide the signature, you will only hide the
banner, and so on.


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas

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Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[theo]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hello,


On 02/03/2011 19:22, Nicolas wrote:
> And as signatures are searched from bottom to top, the banner, being the
> first in that order, will be found first.

It would be better to search from top to bottom then.

That's what most clients do.

That way, you can have a regular signature, a ml signature, an
antivirus signature, an antispam signature, and whatever may occur
between you and the poster and discard all that crap.
- -- 
librement,
theo
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Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: [O] Let's stick to one list for now

[Achim Gratz]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
> Done -- except that I used "-- ", not "__ ".
>
> "-- " is the standard separator for signatures.

Yes, but the mailing list banner is not a signature.  You will now have
(by default) two signatures when replying, of which only the mailing
list banner gets stripped by the MUA.  Like this:
 
> -- 
>  Bastien

... and that should not happen.

Somehow you also seem to have confused the mailing list software about
the mailing list tag in the subject line: it doesn't correctly strip and
re-insert it anymore on reply, so you get "Re: [O]" and "[O] Re:" and
more variations on that theme.  Last but not least Gmane hasn't caught
on to that and now starts to show the "[O]" tag whereas "[Orgmode]" was
always correctly stripped on the newsfeed.  I can configure all of that
away in Gnus, but I don't really see this as an improvement.


Achim.
-- 
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Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Q+, Q and microQ:
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Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: [O] Let's stick to one list for now

[suvayu ali]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> wrote:
> Somehow you also seem to have confused the mailing list software about
> the mailing list tag in the subject line: it doesn't correctly strip and
> re-insert it anymore on reply, so you get "Re: [O]" and "[O] Re:" and
> more variations on that theme.

I think this was present even before the change. For an example look
at this[1] (random) page from the archive. I have a feeling this
behaviour depends on the responders MUA.

[1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2010-06/threads.html

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

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Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: [O] Let's stick to one list for now

[Bastien]

Hi Achim,

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

> Somehow you also seem to have confused the mailing list software about
> the mailing list tag in the subject line: it doesn't correctly strip and
> re-insert it anymore on reply, so you get "Re: [O]" and "[O] Re:" and
> more variations on that theme.  

It was a problem before.

> Last but not least Gmane hasn't caught
> on to that and now starts to show the "[O]" tag whereas "[Orgmode]" was
> always correctly stripped on the newsfeed.  I can configure all of that
> away in Gnus, but I don't really see this as an improvement.

I wrote to Lars Ingebrigtsen asking him if there is something I need to
update on Gmane side.  

Thanks for pointing this,

-- 
 Bastien

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Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Bastien]

Hello,

I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.

Would people object?

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 Bastien

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Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Gregor Zattler]

Hi Bastien,
* Bastien <bzg@altern.org> [03. Mar. 2011]:
> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.

Yeah! Get rid of it!
 
> Would people object?

Not me at least.  It's an annoyance.

Ciao, Gregor
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Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Eric S Fraga]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.
>
> Would people object?
>
> -- 
>  Bastien

I would like to see it disappear...  it is indeed confusing, especially
now with the "-- "...

Thanks,
eric

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: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.592.gc431)

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Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Bernt Hansen]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
>> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.
>>
>> Would people object?
>> -- Bastien
>
> I would like to see it disappear...  it is indeed confusing, especially
> now with the "-- "...

I won't miss it either.

Regards,
Bernt


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Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Julien Danjou]

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On Thu, Mar 03 2011, Bastien wrote:

> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.
>
> Would people object?

I agree and won't object.

-- 
Julien Danjou
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Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Carsten Dominik]

On Mar 3, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Julien Danjou wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 03 2011, Bastien wrote:
> 
>> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
>> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.
>> 
>> Would people object?
> 
> I agree and won't object.

Same here.

> 
> -- 
> Julien Danjou
> ❱ http://julien.danjou.info
> -- 
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> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten




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Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Bastien]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.

Thanks to those who responded -- I've now removed this banner.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Achim Gratz]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.

Please do.

> Would people object?

Not me... :-)


Achim.
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Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Nick Dokos]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I'm thinking of removing the banner completely.  I don't think it is
> really useful, and having it as a signature is indeed confusing.
> 
> Would people object?
> 

There are a few times when I've needed to go to the listinfo page
and I've followed the link from the banner. I'm sure there are other
ways of doing that though, so it's a /small/ objection :-)

Nick

Re: Re: Automatic Org-mode mailing list signature -- Was: Let's stick to one list for now

[Julien Danjou]

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On Thu, Mar 03 2011, Nick Dokos wrote:

> There are a few times when I've needed to go to the listinfo page
> and I've followed the link from the banner. I'm sure there are other
> ways of doing that though, so it's a /small/ objection :-)

Yes, look at the mail headers:

List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." <emacs-orgmode.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode>, <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode>
List-Post: <mailto:emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode>, <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>

-- 
Julien Danjou
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