New maintainer

New maintainer

[Bastien]

Dear all,

I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.

Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.

I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!

:)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: New maintainer

[Jambunathan K]

> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.

To the new maintainer, 

My changes to ox-html.el and ox-odt.el are not assigned to FSF.  So
please correct the headers of these file to reflect the reality.  

Also be respectful of my wish and refrain from merging my changes to
Emacs.  It is a polite request.  Write to me if you have questions.

Jambunathan K.

Re: New maintainer

[Glyn Millington]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.  Please raise
> your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and I'm even more
> glad "Batman" may strike back!

A huge thumbs up from this extremely grateful user!

And an equally huge thank you, Bastien, for shouldering the burden of
maintainership, for the diligence with which you have handled the task
(and the hundreds/thousands of emails which have kept the project moving)
and maybe above all for your patience and steadfastness under totally
unmerited fire. 

with all good wishes





Glyn

Re: New maintainer

[John Hendy]

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
>> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> To the new maintainer,
>
> My changes to ox-html.el and ox-odt.el are not assigned to FSF.  So
> please correct the headers of these file to reflect the reality.
>
> Also be respectful of my wish and refrain from merging my changes to
> Emacs.  It is a polite request.  Write to me if you have questions.

I'd like some definitive resolution to this issue or list-wide
understanding of where things are at. I've been trying to follow your
saga, and my understanding is:

- You signed over contribution rights to FSF at one point. Is this correct?

- You have contacted FSF (or Emacs?) and requested that these rights
be revoked/reversed?

- Has the FSF (or Emacs?) provided any statement/ruling on whether or
not they will honor your request?

I hear you, and you definitely make it known that you would like to
undo what you once did... but my perception is that your emails speak
as though there is no agreement in place at all... but you *did* sign
the contract at one point, right? I've not contributed to code, so
I've never seen the FSF papers and don't really know what they
entail... but if they are signing away rights to future contributions,
it would seem that your work is under that umbrella until *they*
provide confirmation that the umbrella no longer exists (*and* no
longer exists retroactively).

Just trying to reconcile my understanding of your situation with how
you write about it.


Thanks,
John

>
> Jambunathan K.
>

Re: New maintainer

[Aaron Ecay]

Hi Bastien,

2013ko apirilak 18an, Bastien-ek idatzi zuen:

[...]

> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!

Just as Batman and Robin are often seen together, I hope you’ll continue
to be a presence in the org community.  I always appreciate the
helpfulness and patience that you embody.

Thanks,

-- 
Aaron Ecay

Re: New maintainer

[Rasmus]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!

Thanks for your hard work, Bastien.  Great with release 8.0!

I expect you will still be around the mailing list, no?

–Rasmus

-- 
This is the kind of tedious nonsense up with which I will not put

Re: New maintainer

[Bastien]

Please let's not reopen this issue.

Jambunathan signed the FSF copyright assignment for his past and
future changes to Emacs code.  He claims that he can retract this
assignment for changes he made against some Emacs files.  FSF says
this is not possible.

And it does not take too big a brain to understand why: if people
were allowed to retract their assignment when they want for changes
that have been published, the copyright assignment process would
undermine the whole purpose of the GPL license, which is to make
it possible to let *others* contribute to free code.

If there were a problem, it would be a problem for Emacs, not for
upstream Org-mode, which can include any GPL code.  But there is
no problem.  Just someone upset, in bad need for a ban.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: New maintainer

[Detlef Steuer]

The king is dead, long live the king!
:-)

Thank you, Bastien, for all the work!

And thank you, Carsten, for all the work to come! 

Detlef


On Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:53:32 +0200
Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
> 
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
> 
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
> 
> :)
> 
> -- 
>  Bastien
> 
> 
> 

Re: New maintainer

[Bastien]

Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:

> I expect you will still be around the mailing list, no?

I'll focus on something else, but I'll stick around for sure,
at least to ask questions and report bugs!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: New maintainer

[François Pinard]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.

Bastien, your maintainership has been just outstanding, so far that I
could judge.  You're among the great maintainers I happened to meet, and
I tremendously enjoyed your way of driving the project.  Let me thank
you for it all.

I wish Carsten will get, from all of us — OK! given a proper email kill
file :-) — the same level of good will, enthusiasm and collaboration we
have seen on this user group all along for the recent year.

François

Re: New maintainer

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> And it does not take too big a brain to understand why: if people
> were allowed to retract their assignment when they want for changes
> that have been published, the copyright assignment process would
> undermine the whole purpose of the GPL license, which is to make
> it possible to let *others* contribute to free code.

As a maintainer of GNU project, I expect that you should have a basic
understanding of the purpose of the copyright assignment and GPL
license.  From what I read above, I am not convinced that you have the
right understanding.  Your articulation is clearly confusing and falling
short.

See 

        http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AssignCopyright

You assign copyright to FSF so that you don't have to enforce GPL.  By
assigning, one outsources the legal work of actual enforcing to FSF.
Single holder of rights just makes the legal procedures lot more easy.

A contract that cannot be enforced is worthless.  A license that you
cannot enforce is equally so.  

FSF says, assign me the rights, I will go after all the violators and
force them to comply with GPL.

Jambunathan K.

Re: New maintainer

[Jambunathan K]

> Just trying to reconcile my understanding of your situation with how
> you write about it.

This post (not by me) summarizes my position well.

        http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-04/msg00096.html

I have also criticized FSF's arbitrary handling of my request here.

        http://lwn.net/Articles/547737/

If you move over to emacs-devel, you will see some of the commenters
there are very guarded in their response.  It will only go on to show
that I raise valid questions.

People who have flamed me cannot differentiate between oranges and
lemons.  It is not their work that is at stake.  So they can just call
me a troll and dismiss the broader questions I am raising.

Jambunathan K.

Re: New maintainer

[Alan L Tyree]

Jambunathan K writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> And it does not take too big a brain to understand why: if people
>> were allowed to retract their assignment when they want for changes
>> that have been published, the copyright assignment process would
>> undermine the whole purpose of the GPL license, which is to make
>> it possible to let *others* contribute to free code.
>
> As a maintainer of GNU project, I expect that you should have a basic
> understanding of the purpose of the copyright assignment and GPL
> license.  From what I read above, I am not convinced that you have the
> right understanding.  Your articulation is clearly confusing and falling
> short.

As a former teacher of copyright law (University of Sydney), I think
that Bastien displays a very clear understanding of the effects of
copyright assignment. Your understanding is less than clear.  Bastien
gets a "Distinction" in my class. You do not.

Of course, I know that you will think that I am confused.

Bastien, thanks for your patience and help during your time in the
hotseat. You've done a marvelous job.

>
> See 
>
>         http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AssignCopyright
>
> You assign copyright to FSF so that you don't have to enforce GPL.  By
> assigning, one outsources the legal work of actual enforcing to FSF.
> Single holder of rights just makes the legal procedures lot more easy.
>
> A contract that cannot be enforced is worthless.  A license that you
> cannot enforce is equally so.  
>
> FSF says, assign me the rights, I will go after all the violators and
> force them to comply with GPL.
>
> Jambunathan K.


-- 
Alan L Tyree           http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206     sip:172385@iptel.org

Re: New maintainer

[Alan Schmitt]

Bastien writes:

> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.

Thumbs up! And thank you so much for what you did.

Alan

Re: New maintainer

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Bastien,

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.

Thank you for your excellent work as maintainer.  I'm pleased to have
had the opportunity to work with you.

>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>

Yes, thumbs up.

> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!

You should be proud that you're giving back a much improved piece of
software.  From my point of view, the new exporter framework is a huge
step forward.  Congratulations!

All the best,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: New maintainer

[Jambunathan K]

Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> writes:

> Of course, I know that you will think that I am confused.

You are not only confused. You are in hurry and in grave error.

I am quoting an extract of Bastien's words,

        the copyright assignment process would undermine the whole
        purpose of the GPL license

It is wrong to say copyright assigment will undermine the purpose of GPL
license.  Copyright assignment is there to bolster the enforcement of
GPL.  I provided a reference.

----------------------------------------------------------------

My claim is that there is no assignment.  Because out of my own
initiative I informed FSF that "this work is not covered by contract"
and also cancelled the assignment.

How do you interpret the following block extracted from my assignment

    ,----
    | 2. Developer will report occasionally, on Developer’s initiative
    | and whenever requested by FSF, the changes and/ or enhancements
    | which are covered by this contract, and (to the extent known to
    | Developer) any outstanding rights, or claims of rights, of any
    | person, that might be adverse to the rights of Developer or FSF
    | or to the purpose of this contract.
    `----

FSF clearly side-steps the important question - when is a work actually
assigned.  Assignment is not a process but an event tied to specific
time and date.

Will you disagree if I claim - "The intent to act is not the act
itself".  Replacement act with <whatever>.

Jambunathan K.

Re: New maintainer

[Bastien]

Hi Thomas,

tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:

> Thank you for your excellent work as maintainer.  I'm pleased to have
> had the opportunity to work with you.

Having you improve the documentation while Nicolas and I were hard
working on it was a great relief, thanks again for that.

> You should be proud that you're giving back a much improved piece of
> software.  From my point of view, the new exporter framework is a huge
> step forward.  Congratulations!

Yes -- I second Carsten's surprise that someone was crazy enough to
undertake this enormous work.  And its potential still waits to be
completely unfold! 

-- 
 Bastien

Re: New maintainer

[Alan L Tyree]

Jambunathan K writes:

> Alan L Tyree <alantyree@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Of course, I know that you will think that I am confused.
>
> You are not only confused. You are in hurry and in grave error.

I thought so. Thanks so much for clearing this up for me.

>
> I am quoting an extract of Bastien's words,
>
>         the copyright assignment process would undermine the whole
>         purpose of the GPL license
>
> It is wrong to say copyright assigment will undermine the purpose of GPL
> license.  Copyright assignment is there to bolster the enforcement of
> GPL.  I provided a reference.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My claim is that there is no assignment.  Because out of my own
> initiative I informed FSF that "this work is not covered by contract"
> and also cancelled the assignment.
>
> How do you interpret the following block extracted from my assignment
>
>     ,----
>     | 2. Developer will report occasionally, on Developer’s initiative
>     | and whenever requested by FSF, the changes and/ or enhancements
>     | which are covered by this contract, and (to the extent known to
>     | Developer) any outstanding rights, or claims of rights, of any
>     | person, that might be adverse to the rights of Developer or FSF
>     | or to the purpose of this contract.
>     `----
>
> FSF clearly side-steps the important question - when is a work actually
> assigned.  Assignment is not a process but an event tied to specific
> time and date.
>
> Will you disagree if I claim - "The intent to act is not the act
> itself".  Replacement act with <whatever>.
>
> Jambunathan K.


-- 
Alan L Tyree           http://www2.austlii.edu.au/~alan
Tel:  04 2748 6206     sip:172385@iptel.org

Re: New maintainer

[Jonathan Leech-Pepin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 459 bytes --]

Hello Bastien,


On 18 April 2013 12:53, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>

Thank you for all the work you've done.

>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> Thumbs up from me as well.


> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
> --
Jon

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1222 bytes --]

Re: New maintainer

[Tom Davey]

Hi everybody,

I'm just an Org user, one of the many anonymous persons who have
benefited from this fantastic piece of software. Over the past two
years I have come to use Org every day, all day long, more than any
other application with the possible exception of a Web browser. It's
hard to overestimate the value I receive from Org, the sheer personal
effectiveness I've gained.

Bastien, a thousand thanks for your work as maintainer. Thanks as well
to all the other skillful and creative programmers on this list who
make org continually more powerful and astonishing. Especial thanks to
Carsten, both for the past and now in advance as the new maintainer.

With grateful regards to all,
Tom Davey

--
Tom Davey
tom@tomdavey.com
New York NY USA

Re: New maintainer

[Charles Berry]

Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org> writes:

> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
> 

You have done an awesome job. 

This is still the "friendliest little town" on the internet thanks to 
your patience and good judgment in no small part.

And 8.0 is a fine product.


> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
> 

+2 thumbs

Gmane requires me to type the capcha 'uplift' to send this message.
How appropriate!

All the Best,

Re: New maintainer

[Bernt Hansen]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)


Dear Bastien and Carsten,

Thanks, Bastien, for doing an awesome job as the org-mode maintainer
these past few years.  You had a huge job filling Carsten's shoes and
you did an excellent job.  I really appreciate all of the work you have
done as our org-mode maintainer and hope you will continue to contribute
in the future.

Welcome back Carsten!  Please let us know how we can help make your job
easier.  None of us have infinite time to devote to this excellent
project but I'm sure we can help lessen the burden that maintaining this
beast must be.  I use this awesome tool everyday and really appreciate
the thought and effort put into making org-mode the fabulous tool that
it is.

/me can't draw two thumbs up in Ascii without making it look obscene ;)

Warmest regards,
Bernt

Re: New maintainer

[Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala]

Hello Bastien,

Thanks a lot for the great work so far. You are the best.

On Apr 19 2013, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.

👍

>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)


Thanks.,
--
ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు.
YYR

Re: New maintainer

[Noorul Islam Kamal Malmiyoda]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 599 bytes --]

Bastien,

I use org-mode every day and it is really great to see that this project is
always growing. You did an excellent job taking this to 8.0.

Carsten,

Welcome back and looking forward to 8.x

Thanks and Regards
Noorul


On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1190 bytes --]

Re: New maintainer

[Robert Klein]

Hi Bastien,

thank you very very much for maintaining org-mode
for the last two years.

You did a great job maintaining org-mode and keeping
its community together.

I agree with everything Carsten says in his mail
"Changing the maintainer".

While I am happy it is Carsten of all people who
takes up the maintainership, at the same time I'm
very sorry you are stepping down.


Best regards
Robert



On 04/18/2013 06:53 PM, Bastien wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
> 
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
> 
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
> 
> :)
> 


-- 
Robert Klein - Max Planck-Institut für Polymerforschung
Ackermannweg 10
55128 Mainz

Re: New maintainer

[Christian Moe]

Bastien,

What the others said... Thanks for all your work! It's been a pleasure to
follow Org-mode.

Yours,
Christian

Bastien writes:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)

Re: New maintainer

[Suvayu Ali]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:24:46AM +0000, Charles Berry wrote:
> Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Dear all,
> > 
> > I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
> 
> You have done an awesome job. 
> 
> This is still the "friendliest little town" on the internet thanks to 
> your patience and good judgment in no small part.

Indeed!  Thanks a lot :).  And welcome back Carsten.

:)

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Thank you very much Bastien! Hello Carsten! (was: New maintainer)

[Karl Voit]

* Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Dear all,

Dear Bastien,

> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.

I am sorry to have to read this.

As I entered this universe of great Personal Information Management
LEGO bricks two years ago, you were the maintainer in charge of this
huge project. 

Although I already had been part of several communities, I was
overwhelmed by the warm welcome in this one. I loved to enter it, I
love to stay in it.

You are very patient with Org-mode/ELISP rookies and you are
incredible cautious and diplomatic with I-do-not-know-how-to-
describe-but-you-know-who-I-mean people. I learned a *lot* from you
here on this mailing list, not only related to software.

Despite the fact that I am not able to add (ELISP-)code (yet) you
still give me the feeling that my contributions are an important
part of this community and this is just great.

I thank you for all your effort of the past years and do hope that
you will be an important part of this project in future as well.

Je t'embrasse, merci beaucoup!

> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.

When I first read the subject, I was shocked. Especially because of
this silly I-want-to-take-over-and-become-maintainer-discussion of
the past weeks.  

But with Carsten mentioned, I am relieved :-)

My thumbs are up in the air for sure. I am glad that Carsten is
willing to take over again. I can imagine what this means and it is
not easy to find someone who is competent *and* is willing to spend
his/her time on such a project.

Welcome Carsten, I thank you in advance and wish you all the best
for this job!

> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!

Nice picture. Is someone able to photoshop this with their heads for
the web page announcement? :-)


PS: Tomorrow, I give an Org-mode talk [1] at the Linuxdays Graz
(Austria) and I am eager to announce all the changes of the past
days (version 8, best toolset ever, new maintainer) to the audience.
 

  1. http://glt13-programm.linuxtage.at/events/161.de.html (German)
-- 
mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
       > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <

https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github

Re: New maintainer

[Tassilo Horn]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> How do you interpret the following block extracted from my assignment
>
>     ,----
>     | 2. Developer will report occasionally, on Developer’s initiative
>     | and whenever requested by FSF, the changes and/ or enhancements
>     | which are covered by this contract, and (to the extent known to
>     | Developer) any outstanding rights, or claims of rights, of any
>     | person, that might be adverse to the rights of Developer or FSF
>     | or to the purpose of this contract.
>     `----

Well, the FSF's intention here is to make sure that contributors report
back when they change employers, and the new employer doesn't want that
his employees contribute to some GNU project (maybe because that project
is in the same business as the company).  So I think of that more of a
safety measure in order not to run into long-running, painful lawsuits.

> FSF clearly side-steps the important question - when is a work
> actually assigned.  Assignment is not a process but an event tied to
> specific time and date.

As far as I understand it (just after reading one of my FSF CAs), the
changes you apply to a program where you've assigned past & future
changes are assigned as soon as they are written.  They don't need to be
published, distributed, placed in a special repository location, etc.

Bye,
Tassilo

Re: New maintainer

[Thorsten Jolitz]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.

Thats bad news, managing Org-mode appears like such a huge task, and I
always wondered how you were able to deal with all those mails and
patches and bugs with such efficiency, and detailled knowledge about all
those unnumerable features of Org-mode. 

> Carsten accepted to step up

Luckily the good news are attached to the bad news. 

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

Re: New maintainer

[Sean O'Halpin]

Hi Bastien,

I'd like to thank you for the fabulous job you've done as maintainer.

Best wishes,
Sean

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
>

Re: New maintainer

[Charles Philip Chan]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:

Hi Bastien,

>I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.

Thank you for all the hard work you have done in maintaining Org-mode.

>Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
>Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.

+1

Charles


--
Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: New maintainer

[Adolfo Benedetti]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 626 bytes --]

Hi Bastien,

Thank you for your hard work and efforts as org-mode-maintainer,

>Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.

nice, thank you Carsten!


cheers

--
Adolfo Benedetti
M +31 614 706 176


2013/4/19 Charles Philip Chan <cpchan@bell.net>

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Bastien,
>
> >I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Thank you for all the hard work you have done in maintaining Org-mode.
>
> >Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> >Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> +1
>
> Charles
>
>
> --
> Sent from Kaiten Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1617 bytes --]

Re: New maintainer

[Rainer Stengele]

Am 18.04.2013 18:53, schrieb Bastien:
> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
> 
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
> 
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
> 
> :)
> 
Bastien,

let me also thank you so much for your great work and patience answering so many questions!
A lot of questions and ideas I had you simply answered by coding the solution - awesome!
I think you did a very good job and I hope you will stay in the newsgroup in the future.

Carsten, welcome back!

Rainer

Re: New maintainer

[Russell Adams]

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 06:53:32PM +0200, Bastien wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!

Bastien,

You've done an excellent job. Your patience has been incredible, and
Org has prospered. Take a break, you deserve it!

8.0 looks amazing, and I'm excited to see what the community has
created. Org certainly has the benefit of many talented coders.

Thanks!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: New maintainer

[Christopher Allan Webber]

You've done great work Bastien!

And I look forward to Batman Returns!

Bastien writes:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)

Fwd: New maintainer

[Gary Oberbrunner]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 989 bytes --]

[I still can't learn to reply-all to these. :-( ]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Gary Oberbrunner <garyo@oberbrunner.com>
Date: Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [O] New maintainer
To: Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org>


Thanks for the great work, Bastien!  Carsten, you have big shoes to fill
but we all have confidence.  Thanks!  As an open-source maintainer myself I
know how much night-and-weekend work goes into it.


On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:04 PM, Christopher Allan Webber <
cwebber@dustycloud.org> wrote:

> You've done great work Bastien!
>
> And I look forward to Batman Returns!
>
> Bastien writes:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
> >
> > Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> > Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
> >
> > I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> > I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
> >
> > :)
>
>
>


-- 
Gary



-- 
Gary

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1847 bytes --]

Re: New maintainer

[Jambunathan K]

Tassilo Horn <tsdh@gnu.org> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> How do you interpret the following block extracted from my assignment
>>
>>     ,----
>>     | 2. Developer will report occasionally, on Developer’s initiative
>>     | and whenever requested by FSF, the changes and/ or enhancements
>>     | which are covered by this contract, and (to the extent known to
                                             ^^^
                                             ^^^
                                             ^^^
>>     | Developer) any outstanding rights, or claims of rights, of any
>>     | person, that might be adverse to the rights of Developer or FSF
>>     | or to the purpose of this contract.
>>     `----
>
> Well, the FSF's intention here is to make sure that contributors report
> back when they change employers, and the new employer doesn't want that
> his employees contribute to some GNU project (maybe because that project
> is in the same business as the company).  So I think of that more of a
> safety measure in order not to run into long-running, painful
> lawsuits.

Your interpretation is too narrow.  The phrase "and" (marked above)
there makes all the difference.

My reading of the above para and Richard's response down below are
consistent.

  ,----  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-04/msg00066.html
  | If a contributor wants to specify precisely which changes are
  | assigned, he, she or it can talk with the FSF about it.  We can
  | work something out.  However, we'd prefer to be able to use all of
  | someone's changes without specific arrangements.
  `----

>> FSF clearly side-steps the important question - when is a work
>> actually assigned.  Assignment is not a process but an event tied to
>> specific time and date.
>
> As far as I understand it (just after reading one of my FSF CAs), the
> changes you apply to a program where you've assigned past & future
> changes are assigned as soon as they are written.  They don't need to be
> published, distributed, placed in a special repository location, etc.

Assignment of rights is for the purpose of defending GPL.  It is *not*
and *cannot* be an annexation policy.  What you state above amounts to
annexation policy.

Assignment of rights is my prerogative.  I can do it selectively or
cancel it.  FSF cannot interfere with what is an individual decision.

I will only quote an authoritative and responsible source. Focus on last
sentence in the below quote.

    ,----  http://lwn.net/Articles/543436/
    |
    | Anyway, it's unfortunate the Corbet's article above doesn't
    | reiterate the advantages of assigning to FSF to
    | developers. Specifically, the FSF takes on the obligation of being
    | the publisher of the code (which can sometimes be a dangerous act
    | in today's world), and also, FSF handles enforcement of the GPL
    | for the codebase. Finally, FSF gives a liberal license back to the
    | developer (i.e., Jambunathan could have always made proprietary
    | software out of his own assigned works after doing the
    | assignment), and FSF further promises never to publish a
    | proprietary version of the software itself.
    |
    `----

I interpret "proprietary" above to mean "any work (available to public,
it is GPL right?) that is not part of Emacs distribution".

Theoretically speaking, it is OK to have future assignment in place
*and* have works that are assigned, as well as non-assigned
*simultaneously*.  If a work is not part of Emacs, then it is "not
assigned" to FSF.  Simple and practical definition.

----------------------------------------------------------------

It is also important to note that the above paragraph from a FSF board
member is in some conflict with RMS's own claim.

    ,---- http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-03/msg00409.html
    |
    | A diff for Emacs is always a change to Emacs.  I will think about
    | the questions raised by a separate Lisp file.
    |
    `----

In my opinion, the most appropriate thing to state would be 

   "A diff to Emacs submitted to the official channels of the suite -
    either the maintainer, mailing list or bug subsystem, *unless stated
    otherwise* is potentially part of Emacs, in a non-revocable way."

It will be inappropriate for anyone to claim, my local changes to
doc-view.el that I share with a co-worker is a diff to Emacs and hence
part of Emacs.  A change is either part of Emacs or not.  When I say
Emacs, I mean the official GNU Emacs distributed from gnu.org.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Now the primary part of current dispute is that it falls in a grey area

    1. My files are new.

    2. "Org in Emacs Bzr trunk" is not the same as "Org outside of Emacs
        trunk".  One is "part of Emacs" while the other is "not part of
        Emacs".  There is a clear dichotomy here.  It is easy to answer
        "Is this file part of Emacs?" with a "Yes" or "No".  Saying that
        a file is intended to be part of Emacs is equivalent to saying
        "No."

        Thought experiment: You cannot claim ownership of a house merely
        because the other party "intended" to sell it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I will advise all vigorous enterprising young men *never* to assign his
rights to any organization other than his own.

----------------------------------------------------------------

"Intent to act is not the act itself"
Jambunathan K,
        
> Bye,
> Tassilo

Re: New maintainer

[Ian Barton]

On 18/04/13 22:52, Tom Davey wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm just an Org user, one of the many anonymous persons who have
> benefited from this fantastic piece of software. Over the past two
> years I have come to use Org every day, all day long, more than any
> other application with the possible exception of a Web browser. It's
> hard to overestimate the value I receive from Org, the sheer personal
> effectiveness I've gained.
>
> Bastien, a thousand thanks for your work as maintainer. Thanks as well
> to all the other skillful and creative programmers on this list who
> make org continually more powerful and astonishing. Especial thanks to
> Carsten, both for the past and now in advance as the new maintainer.
>
> With grateful regards to all,
> Tom Davey

Me too:) Many thanks to Bastien for all his hard work and for patiently 
answering questions and fixing bugs. Also welcome back to Carsten!

Best wishes,

Ian.

Re: New maintainer

[Jambunathan K]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

>> Well, the FSF's intention here is to make sure that contributors report
>> back when they change employers, and the new employer doesn't want that
>> his employees contribute to some GNU project (maybe because that project
>> is in the same business as the company).  So I think of that more of a
>> safety measure in order not to run into long-running, painful
>> lawsuits.

You are missing out an important aspect - that of "enforcement".  An
organization will most likely "choose to enforce" but an RJH (like me)
won't.

That is, the employer can (presumably) send his lawyer to a the court
with the employment contract and say

    "Employee can assign rights (and FSF can very well accept it).  But
     the assignation has no legal validity because it is not within
     employee's right to do so.  Employee himself agreed that he will
     abide by <whatever> while on our pay.  We are asserting and
     enforcing our position now."

For an assignment to have legal validity, multiple parties - FSF,
contributor and contributor's employer - should *converge*.

When there is no convergence of *all* parties , the "assignment" stands
on weaker grounds.

Standing on weaker ground is precisely what FSF wants to avoid at all
costs.

Jambunathan K.

Re: New maintainer

[T.F. Torrey]

Thank you for your hard work, Bastien. You've done a fantastic job
under unusually adversarial conditions.

On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)
>
> --
>  Bastien
>
>

Re: New maintainer

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)

Hats off, Bastien, it was deftly done.

It's also been a pleasure to witness the surprisingly successful
marriage of two different coding styles: Bastien's damn-the-torpedoes
patch-the-SOB-and-get-it-out-the-door approach, matched with Nicolas'
return to first principles: structure and cleanliness. I'm quite
convinced that the two approaches have been equally essential to Org
mode's current success (and advance apologies for any perceived
mischaracterizations!).

I'm one of the post-Carsten young'uns, but I can't imagine we'll have
any complaints with the man who started it all...

Eric

Re: New maintainer

[Carsten Dominik]

On 21.4.2013, at 10:06, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>>> Well, the FSF's intention here is to make sure that contributors report
>>> back when they change employers, and the new employer doesn't want that
>>> his employees contribute to some GNU project (maybe because that project
>>> is in the same business as the company).  So I think of that more of a
>>> safety measure in order not to run into long-running, painful
>>> lawsuits.
> 
> You are missing out an important aspect - that of "enforcement".  An
> organization will most likely "choose to enforce" but an RJH (like me)
> won't.
> 
> That is, the employer can (presumably) send his lawyer to a the court
> with the employment contract and say
> 
>    "Employee can assign rights (and FSF can very well accept it).  But
>     the assignation has no legal validity because it is not within
>     employee's right to do so.  Employee himself agreed that he will
>     abide by <whatever> while on our pay.  We are asserting and
>     enforcing our position now."
> 
> For an assignment to have legal validity, multiple parties - FSF,
> contributor and contributor's employer - should *converge*.
> 
> When there is no convergence of *all* parties , the "assignment" stands
> on weaker grounds.
> 
> Standing on weaker ground is precisely what FSF wants to avoid at all
> costs.
> 
> Jambunathan K.

This discussion is now considered off-topic for this list.
Please take it elsewhere.

- Carsten

Re: New maintainer

[Bastien]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> It's also been a pleasure to witness the surprisingly successful
> marriage of two different coding styles: Bastien's damn-the-torpedoes
> patch-the-SOB-and-get-it-out-the-door approach, matched with Nicolas'
> return to first principles: structure and cleanliness. I'm quite
> convinced that the two approaches have been equally essential to Org
> mode's current success (and advance apologies for any perceived
> mischaracterizations!).

Yeah.

Let me quote Jamie Zawinski's interview from "Coders at work":

  Zawinski: [...] It's great to rewrite your code and make it cleaner
  and by the third time it'll actually be pretty.  But that's not the
  point---you're not here to write code, you're here to ship products.
  
  Seibel: Folks engaged in overengineering usually say, "Well, once
  I've got this framework in place everything will be easy after that.
  So I'll actually save time by doing this.
  
  Zawinski: That is always the theory.

  Seibel: And there are times when that theory is true, when someone
  has good sense and the framework isn't too elaborate, and it does
  save time.

I actually agree with both points of view, especially with the last
sentence.  And it's easy to play jwz when you can trust someone for
playing the other role :)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: New maintainer

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:
>
>> It's also been a pleasure to witness the surprisingly successful
>> marriage of two different coding styles: Bastien's damn-the-torpedoes
>> patch-the-SOB-and-get-it-out-the-door approach, matched with Nicolas'
>> return to first principles: structure and cleanliness. I'm quite
>> convinced that the two approaches have been equally essential to Org
>> mode's current success (and advance apologies for any perceived
>> mischaracterizations!).
>
> Yeah.
>
> Let me quote Jamie Zawinski's interview from "Coders at work":
>
>   Zawinski: [...] It's great to rewrite your code and make it cleaner
>   and by the third time it'll actually be pretty.  But that's not the
>   point---you're not here to write code, you're here to ship products.
>   
>   Seibel: Folks engaged in overengineering usually say, "Well, once
>   I've got this framework in place everything will be easy after that.
>   So I'll actually save time by doing this.
>   
>   Zawinski: That is always the theory.
>
>   Seibel: And there are times when that theory is true, when someone
>   has good sense and the framework isn't too elaborate, and it does
>   save time.
>
> I actually agree with both points of view, especially with the last
> sentence.  And it's easy to play jwz when you can trust someone for
> playing the other role :)

And, without re-opening any tedious discussions that we've already put
behind us, it's generally the person playing the jwz role who ends up as
"maintainer" -- and that's probably as it should be.

Re: New maintainer

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 18.04.2013 18:53, schrieb Bastien:
> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)
>

Hi Bastien,

have been afk for some days, please let me close up to all thanks seen here.
What's have been quite impressive already was the pure amount of mailings, you delt with day by day.

Having seen you working that hard also raises some concern for now: that daily galeere must be costly: whoever undertakes it, will pay a price. It's your honor having payed 
it for all of us. So far can't consider this stepping down anything else as a loss for org-mode.

While ignoring circumstances of your resign, it's no secret, some unpleasant events happended last weeks, made your task more burdensome as necessary.
I'm not speaking of possible errors - everyone who works will make errors. Who works outstanding might make outstanding errors.
Purely abstractly spoken(!)

OTHO the very best mind a team has --i.e. Carsten--, should not take the most burdensome tasks. IMHO Carsten should be spared for strategic decisions, define and decide the 
path of further development.

In case you didn't lose your interest and just that recent unpleasant experiences caused your resign, what about staying maintainer backed by all this confidence revealed 
beside of some new experience?

Also maintainer must not mean being strictly a single person, even if languages grammar doesn't foresee otherwise.
Regarding recent difficulties, probably it's wise, if Carsten has a closer look, decides in cases from time to time.
IIUC Emacs itself was driven in a similar way last years more or less outspoken - consider this part of it's success story.

Best regards,

Andreas

Re: New maintainer

[AG]

Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org> writes:

> 
> Dear all,
> 
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
> 
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
> 
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
> 
> :)
> 


Dear Bastien,
 I too would like to express my thanks for all your hard work in keeping
org running smoothly over the last couple of years, and unfailing
(preternatural) graciousness even in the face of personal and unprofessional
attacks. I hope you are leaving of your own volition. Illegitimi non
carborundum.


I am also grateful to Carsten for his great contributions of Org, reftex and
cdlatex, and happy to hear he will be taking over.

AG

Re: New maintainer

[Bastien]

Hi Andreas,

thanks for the kind words.

The decision to step down after 8.0 was taken a long time ago,
before the recent problems on the list.  I had to find someone
willing to step in before I could announce this.

I agree "maintainer" is not necessary a single person: my main
purpose was to build a team, so that future maintainer(s) would
feel okay to act as you suggest, for strategic decisions rather
than everyday ground-level stuff.

This position is easy to describe but difficult to hold, because
it depends so much on the community.

This *is* the real challenge I see now: that each of us endorses
some kind of responsability, some co-maintainership feeling, and
act as constructively as possible---be it for org-mode, worg, the
website or whatever.

I already can feel some go in this direction and that's great :)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: New maintainer

[Andreas Röhler]

Hi Bastien,

Am 22.04.2013 00:39, schrieb Bastien:
> Hi Andreas,
>
> thanks for the kind words.
>
> The decision to step down after 8.0 was taken a long time ago,
> before the recent problems on the list.  I had to find someone
> willing to step in before I could announce this.
>

Okay, a good news in circumstances.

> I agree "maintainer" is not necessary a single person: my main
> purpose was to build a team, so that future maintainer(s) would
> feel okay to act as you suggest, for strategic decisions rather
> than everyday ground-level stuff.
>
> This position is easy to describe but difficult to hold,

Precisely.

> because it depends so much on the community.
>
> This *is* the real challenge I see now: that each of us endorses
> some kind of responsability, some co-maintainership feeling, and
> act as constructively as possible---be it for org-mode, worg, the
> website or whatever.
>
> I already can feel some go in this direction and that's great :)
>

Indeed.

Nonetheless, WRT the amount of traffic IMHO having someone to range things a little bit before Carsten must tell will be a great advantage.

Thanks all proving that great stuff,

Andreas

Re: New maintainer

[Julian M. Burgos]

I echo all the thanks that other people already gave.  My digital life
orbits around org-mode, so thanks to everyone who contributed to this
project.  Keep it up!!

Julian  

-- 
Julian Mariano Burgos, PhD
Hafrannsóknastofnunin/Marine Research Institute
Skúlagata 4, 121 Reykjavík, Iceland
Sími/Telephone : +354-5752037
Bréfsími/Telefax:  +354-5752001
Netfang/Email: julian@hafro.is


Bastien writes:

> Dear all,
>
> I'm stepping down as the Org maintainer.
>
> Carsten accepted to step up, if the community agrees.
> Please raise your thumbs up or your concerns, if any.
>
> I'm glad I had this opportunity to work as "Robin" and
> I'm even more glad "Batman" may strike back!
>
> :)

Re: New maintainer

[Jay Kerns]

On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 6:27 AM, Julian M. Burgos <julian@hafro.is> wrote:
> I echo all the thanks that other people already gave.  My digital life
> orbits around org-mode, so thanks to everyone who contributed to this
> project.  Keep it up!!
>
> Julian
>

I have been watching these multiple messages go by trying to find a
space to get a word in edgewise, but instead of waiting longer let me
just say now:  I am sorry to see you step down, Bastien, but also, I
am happy about your bright future ahead.  Congratulations! on a job
very well done!

Regards,

-- 
Jay

Re: New maintainer

[Matt Price]

Just echoing what everyone else has said:  Bastien, your tenure at the
helm has just been fabulous.  8.0 is just an amazing release and org
already just amazingly great has become even better.  Carsten, it's so
generous for you to come back to this project to which you have
already devoted so much energy.  No other tool I use has had such a
great pair of lead developers or such an open and helpful community.
thank you both!

Matt

Re: New maintainer

[Jason Dunsmore]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 241 bytes --]

Thanks for all of your hard work on org-mode Bastien!  Watching you in
action has taught me a great deal about good project/community leadership.
 If there's anything I can do to help with the transition, please let me
know.

Regards,
Jason

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 315 bytes --]