From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id iAslAd1erF67AgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 01 May 2020 17:39:41 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 2BC5OuZerF6tVAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 01 May 2020 17:39:50 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [IPv6:2001:470:142::17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6F0B940777 for ; Fri, 1 May 2020 17:39:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:42436 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZda-0001wJ-E2 for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:39:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40738) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZcu-0001kb-G3 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:39:08 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZck-0004rK-TA for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:39:04 -0400 Received: from wforward2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.31]:60683) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZcg-0004d1-M2 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 01 May 2020 13:38:54 -0400 Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailforward.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A61E3CB; Fri, 1 May 2020 13:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 01 May 2020 13:38:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=8Tg6BM YIrFYKFw3Jp6ApmfEDfTqfF9yR65Q4IER/h2I=; b=h0CjfVsGugqmO5mXkfEZq1 AEU+Y+UMoknlwPRE/wyu3Bo2nzAHqo82gapsjH91Ic/ZelN1bkFXTFCH9q2SPecC O4Sj+tNDuxF4ibFwPseopwg3JXHZ0OpjhTCdfe8DBEDudDnODKZl/FJ/GL53271m VtttFGAbIGfyqCF4UUp/4RZd6PpPUJEq6H4c/++pxT0GZODrWdQdr1Ribxp+u1eC mRmppLniSbGTB45itd3aDLLtKCfYCG7Mn4m5geKZNYxBlHjU+sD7Nn5ct5M4q09M LRoQeqmChSvlHDChJ38f2zQk+SC/FzY7S/gNtNhH4Q9TNCBitUdtXbIokuBCih/g == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrieejgdduudefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne gohfhorhgsihguuggvnhfkphculdehtddtmdenucfjughrpefhvffujghffffkgggtseht tdertddttddtnecuhfhrohhmpeftihgthhgrrhguucfnrgifrhgvnhgtvgcuoehrihgthh grrhgurdhlrgifrhgvnhgtvgesuhhnihdqthhuvggsihhnghgvnhdruggvqeenucggtffr rghtthgvrhhnpefhjeehueejlefgvdeikeekgeethfegkeekvdegleejvdetjeehhffffe etgefgleenucfkphepjeekrdegfedrgedtrddukedvnecuhfhorhgsihguuggvnhfkphep jeekrdegfedrgedtrddukedvnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpe hmrghilhhfrhhomheprhiflhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: from aquinas (hsi-kbw-078-043-040-182.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de [78.43.40.182]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 601943280066; Fri, 1 May 2020 13:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rwl by aquinas with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUZca-0006Fs-NJ; Fri, 01 May 2020 19:38:44 +0200 From: Richard Lawrence To: Bruce D'Arcus , Bruce D'Arcus , org-mode-email , John Kitchin Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback In-Reply-To: References: <777184861.71192.1586510991834@office.mailbox.org> <87imi72bn0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1016821769.78551.1586641375789@office.mailbox.org> <87h7xp0z1y.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874kto245n.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sgh8zpmg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1084456979.81820.1586724551265@office.mailbox.org> <877dykz6ri.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r1wrwvam.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87wo6hfg4k.fsf@aquinas> <87v9lx6ju6.fsf@aquinas> <87r1wj7scc.fsf@aquinas> <87lfmjzgeq.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87h7x7z62q.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Date: Fri, 01 May 2020 19:38:44 +0200 Message-ID: <87k11v5zdn.fsf@aquinas> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: neutral client-ip=64.147.123.31; envelope-from=rwl@fastmail.com; helo=wforward2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/05/01 13:38:48 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 64.147.123.31 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: 0.79 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=h0CjfVsG; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 2001:470:142::17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [0.79 / 13.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.49531216297471]; MX_INVALID(1.00)[cached]; DWL_DNSWL_FAIL(0.00)[2001:470:142::17:server fail]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:470:142::/48:c]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.16), country: US(-0.00), ip: 2001:470:142::17(-0.50)]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[messagingengine.com:+]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[gmail.com,gnu.org,andrew.cmu.edu]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:2001:470:142::/48, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[richard.lawrence@uni-tuebingen.de,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; URIBL_BLOCKED(0.00)[messagingengine.com:dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[4]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[uni-tuebingen.de]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; DNSWL_BLOCKED(0.00)[2001:470:142::17:from]; MID_RHS_NOT_FQDN(0.50)[]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[9]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[] X-TUID: KVXRXZUbZiDP "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: >> > My understanding, though, is that org "cite" would default to your >> > last example I quote above (in natibib, citep); that there's no need >> > for a dedicated "cite/paren" command, either reserved or not. >> >> Not necessarily. "cite" means default value, whatever that is. It could, >> for example, mean: "cite/text" for every citation, if that is what you >> use the most. In that case, "cite/paren" is necessary, to override it >> locally. It could also be, e.g., "cite/footnote", then both "cite/text" >> and "cite/paren" could be of some use. That was suggested by Richard >> Lawrence in this thread, if my memory serves me right. >> >> Does that make sense? > > I think so. I'll defer to Richard on this, since he was making this point. Sorry to take so long to reply. The point I made earlier was that, as far as I understand, the choice of CSL stylesheet is the main factor determining how a given citation gets rendered into the output (assuming you process citations with CSL). So yes, it makes sense to have "cite" mean default value as determined by the choice of stylesheet. I've been skimming the CSL documentation, and I'm realizing that I actually don't have a very good understanding of how these different types of commands would be represented at the level of a CSL processor. Bruce, is it possible to have a CSL stylesheet that would be able to accommodate both e.g. "cite/paren" and "cite/footnote" in the same document? Can a stylesheet support an arbitrary numbers of different citation types like this, and can a CSL processor choose among those types based on their *names*? If so, then I think Nicolas' proposal to have "cite" mean default and make non-default citations available as "cite/xxx" makes sense (especially with the other syntax supporting suppress-author, etc.). If not, then the "cite/xxx" syntax makes less sense to me; it just sort of looks like a different way of writing BibLaTeX commands, and will be hard to support when LaTeX is not the output format. I would be hesitant in that case to make "cite/xxx" the standard way to express "this citation should be rendered in manner xxx, instead of the default". Best, Richard