From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id aB2WKnV4z2BBlwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 19:18:45 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 8MssJnV4z2BCRAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 17:18:45 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DBBAF1FC for ; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 19:18:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:42448 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lv15l-0005jR-TD for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:18:41 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38042) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lv15B-0005jJ-3Y for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:18:05 -0400 Received: from relay8-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.201]:32803) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lv158-0004oS-Sn for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:18:04 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay8-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A55A91BF203; Sun, 20 Jun 2021 17:17:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Nicolas Goaziou To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations References: <871raawc7j.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <4dd47d8d-5dd8-4769-7e2f-eb3438ba0b4a@mailbox.org> <87sg2orz0z.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <81051f87-a90e-56ed-7867-d6179ec1e9ad@mailbox.org> <139ff81d-4af6-1e75-f4c9-416032fc514f@mailbox.org> <87h7icatav.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <952cbae3-496c-acea-4ff1-beb9c3306979@mailbox.org> <87zgvvtoay.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <535c4059-e019-0970-afea-efed82b003ac@mailbox.org> <2009852882.89167.1623622988878@office.mailbox.org> <48377c85-5891-3658-d35b-cba1358878a8@mailbox.org> <87v969htj9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Bruce D'Arcus" , Org Mode List Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 19:17:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Bruce D'Arcus's message of "Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:37:39 -0400") Message-ID: <87k0moihfe.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.183.201; envelope-from=mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr; helo=relay8-d.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Org Mode List Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1624209525; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=kwVlFuxiyqa2sA3gQBsWk1xdwn0ON6mQUX8lCH/PSmU=; b=fMFzu+X8Oesk1MXYeXQW8AQFbUkItdSSYh3oS5mXblv2F/ONAXTrwJTVBfqRtaRNGGNYH3 6dDDNtIqZSGP6J5H5tLjYpOxPOiA/Vq2LH60qC4JXrMcBsGUP1U3fBiMaiXLLF1vEH991E 4xYj6G9jj4hhcYfLzTBwkUQJVwVe+fwV1yzC/WW6nzIw7gm1Exm/dD0vbt/dN9wrlrOEuD 6mZ0mm+xnbixu4sq2Gdj+fJyQkHNvc2cetVyjJncPq9NPb+9EgXkrMcoQv3eAI1uU0cWFW xSLG592QdoLEJhdReqSKZuB1kFFlgw5X0NKjPsl7mXgxA8eALzPrexXfGICrjg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1624209525; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Ruo7nJoS5T0Zt+SL8EkZqmCYVAoXBia/r5agenRLlkTkSVrLHt/l4ZKiIZI7Qs3FQW473z LGD0I4k/gD3F02CTxtcfQC3I1SnLMALoeyhmoV7S0iuAb9tbSc3OFLrZCHsok8AXMYxJ8C O2dZvw7+nPDUSfZmj8kHFwjUJKuxnmL30sZrojS8t0F4aTULTGNr8Za+i6b8z4wfDd1iJq 27ZZElHGUOtBSuQWkImf8Jqz0XM3ivWQkQnHO1lS051qH3kdsirlt22e0mF1V2g9DQ1I53 7QtOQ7b32iH8QcXy+Z0/vss9BJlMpXk6hl8myHydFlnZbuKSGqkzj6hsAogHEQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.43 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 6DBBAF1FC X-Spam-Score: -2.43 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 2SYymyxYdY75 Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 3:41 AM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: >> As another, imperfect, workaround, I submit the following idea for >> consideration: >> >> "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. >> "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole]. >> >> IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines, >> according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside >> the quotation. When processing non-note citations, we just need to >> ensure there is at least a space after the previous element, which is >> less "dangerous" than removing punctuation. >> >> I find it a bit too subtle, and so error-prone, but so is punctuation >> anyway. >> >> WDYT? > > Just to confirm, Nicolas, your proposal would basically say the second > example would override the default punctuation-moving behavior for the > locale? No, this behaviour is still customizable. For example, `org-cite-note-rules' would contain the following entry: ("fr" adaptive same before) where `adaptive' means the proposal above. OTOH, "en-us" would still be ("en-us" inside outside after) where the space does not matter since the punctuation always goes inside. > And for an in-text/author-date style, what would the output be with > that example? > > I, someone who may have an "en-US" bias you could say, would expect: > > "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel, 1971). > > As in, the in-quote period would be dropped regardless, and therefore > a space would also need to be added. In any non-note situation, we just make sure the citation is preceded by a space, so the example would be equivalent to "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. "A quotation ending with a period" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. without moving punctuation. Does that make sense? Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou