From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id GBn9Fxjap2I3CAEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2022 02:45:12 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id YJACFxjap2KwcQAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2022 02:45:12 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0A642EE64 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2022 02:45:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58000 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0ugA-0001Cd-4c for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 20:45:10 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48592) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0udM-0008Le-Cc; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 20:42:16 -0400 Received: from mail-qv1-xf36.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::f36]:36458) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o0udI-00051c-P8; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 20:42:16 -0400 Received: by mail-qv1-xf36.google.com with SMTP id 43so5503176qvb.3; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 17:42:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=fiyhOJTSAf9ZHeOICBBeIgKuH1pSAyVxQcUPM7ZZy+o=; b=pL/Nrqkv88Z0+kKjdepdVBWYAwTMjuFCRDGejE5HmVAKR/1x79TqDxYo52YAiqtAhp MdQr3nXpxcjXFLbwP0+rVt+EI+sLM8SBMjM/WA9KiXYf7rhqxPrX4BLv7phk94RBgHyu +uU/G2CStrVDYmF46XZ6vxIh0pHsiw7OanSXUFAH8UraA8kt1kxY49Fx2Kch1l5dgUO3 xj0TPGnnBnRF7uMzUuM8IxOAoX99xOyZQaYJ43aIDzk5zQpofgRPCm0rhZGWllWuH/aK /GpuINc6ttSKVgyjxosRcyohEDeUY0sQvfI0X+YS0ew+Qu53cSlV2pybXIt2as1uzOFB aa5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=fiyhOJTSAf9ZHeOICBBeIgKuH1pSAyVxQcUPM7ZZy+o=; b=evH7npAO70A+T1gRpEkW3bKgo9XZpdWavmz20cnO/ap9H4LI3itlCuynzDMNVMO5y5 1Pc9pj3UXmvvq8jZV5/pd1qV9XVB6MgmkIO40B8hNxlH8JOX69Xuy8RAzE6+zoE6OulB 9upgNAUPDlIbv44NbWLSPbRFz8J0y5+5Y+k0G/Jr9VABcfUsV/JPbxqfliRlu1+8bFRc LY9+DsoKjEnkCALV5d8nyiH9eNmi8MgKB1NNg34niU+zhv5LgcMXkZqEJXZlc0TAi1nG 3frxAdFFTLcCExMsXlUT4ju9Ysk82ls3TRnwwAA7+OQ9v4ecB2y5d67A1Bw9kWZmqmAS 7yaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9e3uk+D8ESsmNf6qgNctfYWOiEJKxe3vzEML+EPkFMV7HoghPL QMPrdPLLA+HQOrLN93vo+74zPTV4uhY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1uJ5xqp5ei8OCwPRAM2h6NlnLmGIF02HGxcQo31d+hsolrTEysENrO4D/QfLyGrIo3oth3xjg== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5fcd:0:b0:46a:a0f8:db51 with SMTP id jq13-20020ad45fcd000000b0046aa0f8db51mr1753717qvb.11.1655167329005; Mon, 13 Jun 2022 17:42:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (22.b2.a86c.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com. [108.168.178.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t67-20020a379146000000b006a71c420460sm7506770qkd.22.2022.06.13.17.42.07 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 13 Jun 2022 17:42:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Ihor Radchenko To: rms@gnu.org Cc: eliz@gnu.org, theophilusx@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs (was: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package) In-Reply-To: References: <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87r140yuof.fsf@gmail.com> <875yl9e7zm.fsf@gmail.com> <83czfh12kp.fsf@gnu.org> <87pmjhghu2.fsf@localhost> <835yl910gp.fsf@gnu.org> <87wndndbhq.fsf@gmail.com> <83bkuzznws.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5mqmkh.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 08:43:18 +0800 Message-ID: <87czfcm5w9.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f36; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-qv1-xf36.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1655167511; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=fiyhOJTSAf9ZHeOICBBeIgKuH1pSAyVxQcUPM7ZZy+o=; b=pdrrj4VCkxQsLPI8KQ0AgB1xKeqgScF+lqWyS9uESJg1eCLz35fGlIvqeCpWqI4OKFoxc4 j1H7orbsA93qpjUIKe8pclCh1tjLXeUuccH9FdgyFCINnL/C0oLJ6Feb8XadipJNonDrOv rDYR8SmaRBvsuuUMMgOhKUe62dRm6MgbSoY2R/66x9g1TP0oINAgTPLJGvEZ5ozM6TdJ4t l48Zob8yajKUapKd+Z7G6IBHpb3pW0FOJvK65R84YWGQHHHAdsjeOpRf5DIRCHIzf2FNgg kE/ItnieGaly5Z6Or3Drm0X4vnZfoLvhWh2JNj3UTCjYe1hZ291wnaEDhsQo/Q== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655167511; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=hYvLhL/oU3g7NUUGkkfw9N2LWOYtPw1VjLyIzBXUf0KhGmDDSzGvQTq1Qs05Yf/GjvHvL6 AFWbt8zaPmYO7sJdpCMXec4lcp9SGedXtH7WiW7Liguv05NW+X1yZuukj0nRVxyaLQvJZ7 ObO7LpoqQJhLN0xsJU6mMnOLMh4PaDEYO+XD3vsJHZsNuq9L0Q/rVHw4ywlnc1HVtpxTYu Ka+WB1WTCM/7iOLoTy4q5riyibRYmOUvUiKIwuoOUqVxGQZbXkstdzH4o/WNH9kbHSDv35 Vje49Rmug3vYLHob0lZo9dv4q9oe6A8Jtmdx435HtF/E5sL+pY6cIlRkES54cg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="pL/Nrqkv"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.49 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="pL/Nrqkv"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E0A642EE64 X-Spam-Score: -3.49 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: XFplsHvCZG/5 I am CCing Org ML from now signifying that this branch of the thread is directly relevent to Org mode and might be of interest for other Org contributors. Richard Stallman writes: > > So, now we have our manual written in Org mode and we never had reasons > > to come back to texi. > > I suspect that it doesn't fully follow the markup conventions > for GNU manuals. That's because we designed Texinfo to have markup commands > to make all the proper semantic distinctions. If the manual source > is written in a language which doesn't have the full gamut of markup > distinctions, there is no way to do the markup correctly. > > It would be useful for someone who understands these conventions > to check the Org manual and see. Yes, it would certainly help! The work on manual has been done a long time ago and we also extended our texinfo exported to suit the manual at that time. Assumingly, just enough to handle the Org manual use-cases. Note that we have doc/Documentation_Standards.org explaining some of the conventions. Here is a possibly relevant note inside it: - Only two of the standard Texinfo indexes are used; those for concepts and keys. This has some implications: + The preference is to document commands by key rather than by name + Texinfo commands such as @var and @defoption are not used. The preference for this type of thing is that the user browses the customize groups. If you want or need to refer to, say, a variable then document it as "the variable @code{org-startup-folded}" + Entries in the concept index are normally all lower case unless some other rule dictates otherwise. Without knowing texinfo, the above paragraphs do not make a whole lot of sense for me. So, if someone points out any omissions, it would be helpful for future Org contributors. > I don't think the slowness of processing nowadays is the crucial issue > here. Computers are much faster now than in the 1990s. It used > to take a long time for TeX to process the Emacs Lisp Reference Manual. > Now it is perhaps 10 times as fast. Generally, there is no way Org export to .info gets any faster than texinfo. Org is only able to export to other text formats: org->texi; org->tex; org->html; etc. Convertion to more low-level formats is left to the external tools like texinfo and pdflatex. As for reports on the slow performance, they are still useful as long as they reveal some bottlenecks in Org exporter. Org is being used to export large documents and whole websites. Hence, improving performance in this area is generally helpful, even if it is not strictly a critical blocking issue. What I want to say is: do not expect Org export to be faster than native binary tools, but do not hesitate to report performance issues either. Best, Ihor