From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id mNGONGZlm14cNQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:39:02 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id OMxVCmtlm14HIAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:39:07 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7233941FDA for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 20:39:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33274 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jPuEz-0006aq-9n for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:39:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52904) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jPuEN-0006aZ-8L for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:27 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jPuEM-0003Ww-Oy for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:27 -0400 Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]:44851) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jPuEM-0003VU-2L for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:26 -0400 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD66D5C0088 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= references:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id :mime-version:content-type; s=fm2; bh=NwDFX54ssHF3k+tJ/DwvhI3xN+ kagNZhdTAl98BsgRU=; b=BkdNS0BZygfOEgQ2R2StKJ2lqUpRVKJWhZ+uWbbpeH kHtcPEIZ/Pe5KFnHiRf/cRbTdNiEhD3ANLFkh5FNbb5ZJF4mqXUNfsWGS0IxtLfQ NIZ+8E2rEIQCFydm2w2cENBXBIPtgl/JjRSD2CdX2OjcCR3pm0PqYUQDwM4fkiil bMSQEOOMntvz/o8nOCAX7je1PLVKndhLcWoBmtTYiqENrq/EFQmXMB2neX2uRITn YdEN76XmorDDZYLbsJxfdZ/RVMOQNQ9vxrDvFWBnv7YUxmeldLXr6+5iuPhuXb3q I3vIcwfY56IErDHLE8K5Ls4U93EfnKzljbGeLaf17PsA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=NwDFX5 4ssHF3k+tJ/DwvhI3xN+kagNZhdTAl98BsgRU=; b=UxO1hgzLtuCxqtv9O0sf6Q sw6lE4YurMD21iQkI0+mPxVZpCLba2AeC1ihbCe5rWPypkWLivVP2QZd0yEYPlo+ 346MuQY7DJvxlaR0/2mqb9j+fxepx7mefsQiHi8r3K78K/Go5x0Kkvz57LsEjzt2 jt5bt8n6nt4dcgaPmcAZ10Lhtwn0P9dh1ooucZyYp397+cMMDKWaHX2ZP3HZoga9 I7+Q6qFQRauV2Nei3qgk5R1oZKodTGTnm8SeyQo2mCiYMmfmLi3Yp/rBLq9GOyyv XlWPulKvHJRPMbvNAVAJr49nsxUxn/Bf4aH+Bwu15Xx/MpUDRT5V794Fq2PruuoA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduhedrfeelgdduheegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpehffgfhvffujgffkfggtgesthdtre dttdertdenucfhrhhomheplfhoohhsthcumfhrvghmvghrshcuoehjohhoshhtkhhrvghm vghrshesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmheqnecukfhppeelhedrledtrddvtddurdeivdenuc evlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehjohhoshht khhrvghmvghrshesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdhfmh X-ME-Proxy: Received: from Swift.fastmail.com (ip5f5ac93e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de [95.90.201.62]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C36E63280059 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2020 16:38:22 -0400 (EDT) References: <777184861.71192.1586510991834@office.mailbox.org> <87imi72bn0.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1016821769.78551.1586641375789@office.mailbox.org> <87h7xp0z1y.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874kto245n.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sgh8zpmg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <1084456979.81820.1586724551265@office.mailbox.org> <877dykz6ri.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r1wrwvam.fsf@fastmail.fm> <87wo6hfg4k.fsf@aquinas> User-agent: mu4e 1.4; emacs 26.3 From: Joost Kremers To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback In-reply-to: Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 22:38:19 +0200 Message-ID: <877dycsf5w.fsf@fastmail.fm> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.26; envelope-from=joostkremers@fastmail.fm; helo=out2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 66.111.4.26 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: scn0 X-Spam-Score: -1.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=fastmail.fm header.s=fm2 header.b=BkdNS0BZ; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=UxO1hgzL; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=fastmail.fm; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Scan-Result: default: False [-1.31 / 13.00]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; GENERIC_REPUTATION(0.00)[-0.57373011761503]; MX_INVALID(1.00)[cached]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip4:209.51.188.0/24:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[fastmail.fm]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; IP_REPUTATION_HAM(0.00)[asn: 22989(0.25), country: US(-0.01), ip: 209.51.188.17(-0.57)]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[fastmail.fm:+,messagingengine.com:+]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[fastmail.fm,none]; MAILLIST(-0.20)[mailman]; FORGED_RECIPIENTS_MAILLIST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[95.90.201.62:received]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[209.51.188.17:from]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:22989, ipnet:209.51.188.0/24, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[larch=yhetil.org]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[joostkremers@fastmail.fm,emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[fastmail.fm:s=fm2,messagingengine.com:s=fm2]; URIBL_BLOCKED(0.00)[fastmail.fm:dkim,messagingengine.com:dkim]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[emacs-orgmode@gnu.org]; HAS_LIST_UNSUB(-0.01)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; DWL_DNSWL_LOW(-1.00)[fastmail.fm:dkim]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[8]; FORGED_SENDER_MAILLIST(0.00)[] X-TUID: tQChkf+wikIR On Sat, Apr 18 2020, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > The question, then: Is that what you're saying; we don't need > suppress-author? > > I think I actually agree, though will add a topic that came up > in the > CSL implementation discussion for the author-in-text styles in > the > past few days. > > Here's a common way a citation might be integrated in a > narrative text: > > Doe, by contrast, found negative results (2017). There are other constructions in with suppress-author is useful. For example, possessives: Doe's (2017) results... or Doe's (2017) ground braking paper... Such use is not uncommon in my field. Also, consider languages that require a case ending on the author name. And who knows what quirks other languages may have? > So we have the author name in-text, than some text, then the > year-only citation. > > The traditional way to do that in pandoc is to use the > suppress-author > command at the end. > > Doe, by contrast, found negative results [-@doe17]. > > So the piece of information I refer to above is that one of the > CSL > implementers (Frank Bennett) figured out how to make the above > example an author-in-text variant, so that you don't need > suppress-author, and the entire sentence is the citation. > > He did this by adding an optional "infix" variable to the > citation. I doubt that would work in every case. Consider e.g., ; In her original (2017) study, Doe argues that... [...] > This is arguably an edge case, but it does relate to the > question of > whether we need two (standard and author-in-text) or three > commands > (adding the suppress-author). I would definitely say that a way to suppress the author is necessary. In fact, I would argue that there should also be a way to cite just the author name, if only to make sure it's not misspelled or written inconsistently. (I'm a regular user of \citeauthor in BibLaTeX... ;-) But I admit that's less of a necessity. -- Joost Kremers Life has its moments