From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:306:2d92::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id qBrkFxMq2mTpXgAASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 15:20:19 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:306:2d92::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8BTpFhMq2mQrKQEAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 15:20:19 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C61A454537 for ; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 15:20:18 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=ucl.ac.uk header.s=selector1 header.b="Ul9S/1Xq"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ucl.ac.uk; arc=pass ("microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1"); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1692019219; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=FeuN2A2GPMvxjAhgkIWg0Te4z91FGCAx/aBwT3wWytU=; b=gtG/RLOc/nOw0UZmFZ915xx4A4BHvQ5B9x9GN0+U0FqO/5MonHeYYGg3sX0Fai1uSRyXxP UF2Ru3tv/NjiGQWEeGlWPO97FwHnfnUuX4tMGLLn+PTm3psv/GNPgW31DpxRuIbOAuvtUJ n5wUVF/x3ginnJ6ZSh1GfkxPaSqBKlzbCnpQVJU4IEIFAk6uuY/Vc+Ki5wipPgJbkzx+bu 4ge3+eNAUDpGzb8T3N3zITBRNDSLTgvvwFvqBn5HHEXDqLEtZolIEznKf7B41QoQuLzZdx wX34Zb0ZvD8vsCdoppHpqIc+2i0e1IHQ8uSTdb+KRW4sl1ajT2mZwe7VwS6v7w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=ucl.ac.uk header.s=selector1 header.b="Ul9S/1Xq"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=ucl.ac.uk; arc=pass ("microsoft.com:s=arcselector9901:i=1"); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=2; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1692019219; a=rsa-sha256; cv=pass; b=hhIhznK3rSR64ruigUe88bkYpOyEnHgXRX3hqtKPU9aO3V/WoXYFwKkG3qKYlH725bFVyP hnA0zbku1kTJumpAwp6zgIO35uPBvRLzvRO+CIVDAJTcsbeSGCHHMyffvDVEGHq5puqYKJ m02LDDndCauS2oTCtIKbohwcx5tho2yfPAj1tfGCzX65iz+G7I3TJeznUBbEs8WYuDXl7d zxHKnO8Ws9/gyjFTS/92qFBmQwsgs036hg5NdrSMV+i7hEhHSz6hUtgVjY7bIryr9dtBf6 W33hlQFxEXhSZi2/EIpIH9564plXD09/PxE0gBbYfkBBH2iNcr+K81zCtzIlwA== Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qVXTf-0006Oj-OG; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 09:19:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qVXTa-0006LW-RW for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 09:19:18 -0400 Received: from mail-db5eur01on2104.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.107.15.104] helo=EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qVXTY-0006Jf-ML; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 09:19:18 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=n4eDYZ+8dgdH09ebwFzgOXMfn18JzJrLhFOkMCFUl2rWCZ+1+9Wey315mIQ1mHAJsJRGt80Welttk5YlI+fwV0SkDWmAtBkrsJsdZ6ovaopGivLk+Rnen4JLEDaDoFZ+zr0i5h7ufGKxPQEkjc9/HjINPmVi5WCCFqhJ7R4PtqyDGJ2yAJ+ZfH4pK7bmwjxfPOkCc2yUTal4eyvujG+8opBPQ5x1G0nYf+yYuuz5NzZUMixgp+RoFnd35s5xPVebgDsMconddyqhmpkSDczz9yJEYKbr3vY9earANa+QroY7gMl/TgiDLNw99f4StHgPJmaYP+qez9AQTQaYfXFZSA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=FeuN2A2GPMvxjAhgkIWg0Te4z91FGCAx/aBwT3wWytU=; b=LFPxNdowAfzMySDHbZu/ubk6Uu3wrIEyVHvc1NskqG0mMKbcI8y+ZC5YLQfjD8Dcxtkv1fDalwAK1Hv1vCV0JjPB1J33NEHPgw2/0f8MPS93kCkeB1O1wtMY0JaRL18cgV3GD0V0ZjuniKtbknxefz1OrkMN5MxZfsmW9Q28hxutYoY0NUiIfjN1kq5uMXK9KLyQ0jef4/sMpv8o8GULH+VIjHtUnyheURhkUj8UKswKQQ2HNw20exqAnrx4W+f5CGySeuokel3cKNFLgTrlAj3Tn6R7YF0kq6kGjTCeTXvF6b/9T/scUeN1d2Y/CUoyRP5al5C+lzt5CcTLhQ4hyg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=ucl.ac.uk; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=ucl.ac.uk; dkim=pass header.d=ucl.ac.uk; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ucl.ac.uk; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=FeuN2A2GPMvxjAhgkIWg0Te4z91FGCAx/aBwT3wWytU=; b=Ul9S/1Xqunxhf5urcH85B8rnY0pVZvkxjHbaSV6jWED/z6VWpvJtIYFzUWACErIdCfpFKXA6XxC6rU7UE4e3uVrmm/J/WaSuc7N+hbyDCOG/mTnjLVAgH6uftMPP1nFYlPo33JtHfu6X315tWU0xz6Y5FPfT5BcLR+WvYmNlLPk= Received: from AS4PR01MB10249.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:20b:4fa::21) by AM7PR01MB7074.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:20b:1c0::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6678.24; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 13:19:09 +0000 Received: from AS4PR01MB10249.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com ([fe80::dd82:4583:9b8a:736c]) by AS4PR01MB10249.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com ([fe80::dd82:4583:9b8a:736c%7]) with mapi id 15.20.6678.022; Mon, 14 Aug 2023 13:19:07 +0000 From: "Fraga, Eric" To: Samuel Wales CC: Bastien Guerry , Ihor Radchenko , Max Nikulin , "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" Subject: Re: [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? Thread-Topic: [POLL] Should we accept breaking changes to get rid of Org libraries that perform side effects when loading? Thread-Index: AQHZya/YUKSz0Hbn2kmNqsPtY0aUsg== Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2023 13:19:07 +0000 Message-ID: <875y5hn4mt.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> References: <87o7omg4ie.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> <87pm91ngb8.fsf@localhost> <87jzz8f3re.fsf@alphaville.usersys.redhat.com> <87mt43agk6.fsf@localhost> <874jq8ohbr.fsf@localhost> <87bkfip3mo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0odrkbp.fsf@localhost> <875y5pvf04.fsf@bzg.fr> <87bkfdud55.fsf@localhost> <87cyzswhqn.fsf@bzg.fr> In-Reply-To: (Samuel Wales's message of "Sat, 12 Aug 2023 15:18:36 -0700") Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: gnus (Emacs 30.0.50) x-url: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucecesf/ mail-followup-to: Org Mode List x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AS4PR01MB10249:EE_|AM7PR01MB7074:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c827d68d-489b-405f-807e-08db9cc90a50 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:AS4PR01MB10249.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230028)(366004)(346002)(396003)(376002)(136003)(39860400002)(451199021)(186006)(1800799006)(6512007)(71200400001)(6486002)(122000001)(38100700002)(38070700005)(86362001)(36756003)(26005)(4744005)(6506007)(2906002)(54906003)(2616005)(478600001)(66556008)(8676002)(5660300002)(66476007)(66946007)(66446008)(64756008)(8936002)(41300700001)(4326008)(6916009)(316002)(786003)(76116006)(91956017)(26583001)(56340200001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: =?iso-8859-1?Q?hR4XNwWnroiR/hs0Nmtx4yP+PoyPlQwIohT7IvI97HvaoULVfkyi4Qx8s5?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?rv7NT/LHpGE+mpaUO4OUdjLmMLzG1irvid6Dj4/9iep7mkRQLoezN+Felv?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?RuXt7QdENcVJ1xVa7IClr4XGPIEnKr1jmhR6HQdH4+5soQsbIvbmKt56E8?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?+DgI4/7xeLcuV1RJcfkhGjN1HP/4LRJom+OheIG0oZ1UUVtnJzoIUe/eTV?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?NjBPEk4/mFCtFJSlMa9dfASjfG2OwmaF1LzuPCKcsCRjWYaH2ij+U8fvCO?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?3rm1yWGw6G3paCP8rX2BOST3WALFuZ0qasilyOPjDuY1H4rLnoPD8hDwtG?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?beq1RSWh+bWnh2LI8vwYbyKeJJx32+y6E+EZg4R92EWJ5pzNHGCpaoAEbV?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?eXHnB4jYqasfLsCnm8XI19apZDma1dknVEfCO4Q9vSI0xoo3TCmPYpQAnL?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?V7Q/FWJKYDtJ5b2Ls3fU2k9QpNfyoVhDk6uXkdRRZlJkmevhDObXbpLlDS?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?VepOEyULbBnCWWjRJKe4zMY0JWK+qvkAPulnlHA8B+mype6DQxdAqb0NgJ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?WM2jvPCaCWY86KxjDIaSigMDX4ksa5Xj9MM6YsxBrEdd4ctfT4gazy2mzy?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?5xLj+5xXtsrKx5Y3LV5KRJflrfdoSoCFyQDbpExfKOVucTt9NrRC3NkpKW?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?MvVTIpY5bLNSh9aMXDXYp7LJ9sbbE6lnPzl9+LvUpz5nDskb49mLcEenlf?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?LMCEaRpgY/DlxbWxDERU/QsRseDhU8cqxGl5ccgkjSqKedNbMxYaW00NWl?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?X4zZXnlPWdU2JLQq8ZHaXQYgJbfM1ZsMK6FMGu8WzQT6h0wG7U0uv9icnA?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?OuC8wuOOvvv7SeD/krtVDv2J/PajZoCNRuWIbGiDPX1YRWHrNr3f1kNX+f?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?DLWWZYCm3XEd0uMx/GchXoHSQMLzRamDxxBMQzLb/6/KNCttB7yTZWH9BV?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?UBIPHerql1C8uyW1Bkf6mCATcOuWl8YWcLjwy1ygkg/ORGmtf4Qpqm54Hw?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?bFxM1eWtOIKT5IXN6uYt+0gxHyNcicQvGGPjLNlRP5VBw13EiSMenqaDgE?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?xIRqLNJ1THdgiDZVNYrOCOe1suobrs2ef4P8kmTQUi56lLunZg2pRGo+QR?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?JAfpbAVTPIyCu5VpZeRAJuLFExEk0/2j3A24+CEZrrg8MDhDucih9R6esY?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?IgPIaq4338NUNunOEujahATYcZdMEfqGWLrfpYv9E9gmtgMHrux75Tu6yB?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rtd7FPLnjmU869sG/Wpv0INE2eADxX1ljJ9XmmXKXaEERfWQ2HyWQU68Q7?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?e6kSMPbXZAYRh7zk8A+Dz4Zyj7xVfI3HWlmmWUUWATz3O9wHvTGK12KLxJ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?8aIRkutj6sH7Sj4/E3HS9kRFtD6q+1jPGcSy51pvAsh66QFwDCSTdbz/8d?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?jwUTszeQC6f4cfruiJdXlN7BV0HHzXRsoWihg1+5Jp4IEHRwYM7oNh6CjJ?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?FAZp7sWmuLPY7WTRhhF6BSUL9BU6xTyOoSIhTRCqBe0VNQGY2d+IPOQg54?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?BKK4SGoaK07x2WrItO6Y0CQ/oTF1mRc2ql?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ucl.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AS4PR01MB10249.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c827d68d-489b-405f-807e-08db9cc90a50 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Aug 2023 13:19:07.8358 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 1faf88fe-a998-4c5b-93c9-210a11d9a5c2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: c8SIBYCKn3qivUvz24Tr24hAtyaio9fj7yBsLwuY68kntofAayvGZ3MEmlXvTryx3fk1SrsRZERkFHbD3Ryepw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM7PR01MB7074 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.107.15.104; envelope-from=e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk; helo=EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.51 X-Spam-Score: -8.51 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C61A454537 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx2.migadu.com X-TUID: HE1ZzZI9F43J I'll chime in regarding inlinetasks: I used to use these *a lot* but I found that drawers do what I needed in almost all cases very effectively (for my use cases). I have no strong feelings therefore with respect to either of the aspects being discussed. --=20 : Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.6.7-635-gf9e083 in Emacs 30.0.50=