From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id IFiNBJsRY2BNdwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:55:07 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id KKAbOpoRY2DeaQAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 11:55:06 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64EF026129 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:55:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:34036 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lRCxc-000824-Tk for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 07:55:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47238) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lRCx9-00080Z-72 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 07:54:35 -0400 Received: from mail-out02.uio.no ([2001:700:100:8210::71]:37622) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lRCx2-00038s-W4 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 07:54:33 -0400 Received: from mail-mx10.uio.no ([129.240.10.27]) by mail-out02.uio.no with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1lRCwv-0008do-8x; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:54:21 +0200 Received: from cm-84.209.16.135.getinternet.no ([84.209.16.135] helo=sputnik.shmi.ifi.uio.no) by mail-mx10.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) user msteffen (Exim 4.93.0.4) (envelope-from ) id 1lRCwu-0007yq-8v; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:54:21 +0200 From: Martin Steffen To: Ypo Subject: Re: About exporting Organization: IFI UiO Norway References: <88a3facd-2f95-42b7-135a-d2ec6a730ba7@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:54:13 +0200 In-Reply-To: <88a3facd-2f95-42b7-135a-d2ec6a730ba7@gmail.com> (Ypo's message of "Mon, 29 Mar 2021 21:37:09 +0200") Message-ID: <86tuosdfh6.fsf@login.ifi.uio.no> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-UiO-SPF-Received: Received-SPF: neutral (mail-mx10.uio.no: 84.209.16.135 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of ifi.uio.no) client-ip=84.209.16.135; envelope-from=msteffen@ifi.uio.no; helo=sputnik.shmi.ifi.uio.no; X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-5.0, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, AWL=0.034, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5) X-UiO-Scanned: E34F3C95C50CD913B1B3F52FDEAB3613CD227BAB X-UiOonly: 777EA9F43D27E99048876E34857A80CEF807776B Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:700:100:8210::71; envelope-from=msteffen@ifi.uio.no; helo=mail-out02.uio.no X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1617105306; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=uHLFnhwjajd1sGYwdzyH9M9pQZYvIkgpHHNSaCnoPkk=; b=Z2FSsu8VrvnZ1CauyP8O5fGmZ5mZJDnav4S5+erzX3IweD0oiYLq96bLkC7y4+Owq/9qYw JdidWUz9LtnjnAafbgp7KeupW0YvwiuUkbbbc+KrLGMeN4Odl9DoeeyJv/cJwrsTotg8VO XUXw/2JlqrS4iCd/6aSHlqtoEJ5eg2VCvZ126WOcXBFM1MIU1lg6QCD9nG/IDNKBMkJy2t HNbTzmSe/TUwb5jA/fTyf9fu9hl0SVt02YtRVN5WKlX7LH60W7myIZ4nbG41j4j8sQOeTY 0Z37V+VcIRYSR5woN7DF+HFF1snfmgHtzsLjaBHHbJjYKc0UzZcRocSiKRrvlg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1617105306; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=rD/05WZs6YfapEcngAWxpTj5wuxEf071Z1OBlFUgU/mciTpZ+vjpfjZpSpmTHdFv1tOTSv ys2mvKf9gLXKmYxzi4WUS21MqnLTFIp6oiFYEMfpv0AGNV7z2pdAFmIZ0P+eGLb1f/p4JV bWcS+XGgRyw+jjW+5CXG/772q725ZzTHxIE2T8oWc261wK1YncASwk/3pmn8Tr/Yw1akY0 McR1qsgKB9QGQKRfPvTj2occpc6XjnGdTi5MY6mcOf2/BpGLsDngrar0KS3mXj1keBMyi0 ICWqhPCChI72oBcFtknlQ5V6dB3BwIjejDJxJ0ISSZtx+yKH0qjwLebB0vK3iA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.98 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 64EF026129 X-Spam-Score: -2.98 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: s5s0McJuqCJD Hi, here's my angle (which works for myself) how I use org-exporting in connection with doing documents (I use in the meantime also org to export as input for jekyll to produce HTML, but that's a different use, the heavy lifting there is done in jekyll). I am a LaTeX user since quite some time (also a bit TeX and texinfo) ever since students. For LaTeX, I consider myself close to carrying a black belt, maybe brown :-), for TeX and texi it's more dabbling (actually for texinfo, I in the meantime use org and export to texinfo) My (academic) environment and my field encourages use of LaTeX, that or at least tolerates it; there are colleagues not to mention the administration, who never would consider touching something "unprofessional" like LaTeX, not mention org.... Evern since I picked up org, I use org also to produce LaTeX. Often diferent versions of Latex-src from the same org file. Sometimes LaTeX + HTML side by side, sometimes ODT. For ODT, it's often that someone forces me to ``it must be doc-file'' (or docx), because for some document and "doc-file" is synonymous. The more the use-case for the document is proper typesetting /and nothing else/, so the focus is on one single typeset output, the more I simply work in LaTeX only. I have the feelinga it's faster, and the fancy stuff (macros, enviorinments, styles, classes), I rely on LaTeX's facilities anyway, even if I use org as pre-stage. If I have a multi-purpose use-case, I often use org, or actually, it's a mixure. Still the fancy stuff (typesetting specification, macros, environments....) is done in latex. By multi-purpose, I for instance mean I do for some courses. The slides are in LaTeX, which means, beamer mode,and org supports that reasonably. A different version of the "slides" contains more text (sentences, expanations, etc). So I export a different version (different export tags). Still some portions of the overall document are native LaTeX. those are typically included (not ``inlined''), often formulas and math definitions, one reason being that editing LaTeX is faster in that case than editing that in org. And a third version could be HTML for webpages etc. Of course one can have conditional text in LaTeX as well, but org is quite good in that as well. One can export latex to html, but generating it from org is better. There is one case where I do _NOT_ use org for such documents (though I use org basically most things I do), and that is collaborative editing, working together on a document (maybe shared by git), at least with a document of some amount of complexity and typesetting requirement. Even if I know that some colleagues use org (very few only, though), I have the distinct feeling it gives too much headaches. Org would work fine, being text, so revisioning is easy. However, it's TOO flexible. I do quite complex documents with org (exporting to latex), but I am not sure how sure to make it reliably work when working together with one or more persons, and how much ``debugging'' and headache it would take. I for instance like to test out new packages, have the newest org. For LaTeX, that seems mostly unproblematic, for org, not sure. And then comes the personal habits: One great thing is that org is flexible and one can make use of useful ``workflows'' or conventions that profitable for oneself, and one gets used to it, one can adapt, and then I have extra packages and adaptations. I can handle that (because I adapt that myself), but it may conflict with other people's fiddlings. Of course, in latex you can fiddle endlessly as well; even if one has agreed on common macros and class files and conventios, one can easily mess it up (typically for novices, who start changing layout or typesetting, injecting manual spacing etc). But in LaTeX it seems more under control, the purpose is to provide uniform typesetting of text documents, it allows you to imposes "discipline" on the format (if you are willing to stick to the agreed style files etc) Org, on the other hand, is not about "uniform, classy output", it's not about "discipline", it offers freedom and encourages playing around with, and people who like to work with org _like_ to play around with it and to stuff with it that others did not though of. That's why I have not dared to write challenging (latex) documents with org collaboratively (complex documents alone, yes, simple documents jointly, but not all....) [ Martin >>>>> "Ypo" == Ypo writes: Ypo> Hi Ypo> After some years of using orgmode, and exporting using its Ypo> defaults, I would like to take a quality leap and find a way of Ypo> exporting for life. My options: LaTeX, ODT, HTML. Ypo> LaTeX: I can see some masters here that make professional Ypo> books, and I have some friends that publish scientific papers Ypo> using LaTeX. But, it looks like a like a rabbit hole to me, Ypo> since even the masters seem to have to modify the tex file Ypo> directly (is this correct?), not being sufficient orgmode to Ypo> culminate the work by itself. And to learn LaTeX seems a Ypo> lifelong activity (almost like "learning" orgmode). BTW, when I Ypo> export to LaTeX although it gets the job done, it sends a lot Ypo> of error messages. Ypo> ODT: I take this one as a lower level solution than LaTeX, but Ypo> it looks easier to tame, and it even allows to use templates, Ypo> for example to make reports in the workplace. Do you think it Ypo> is worth focusing on ODT exporting? Could it be a definitive Ypo> solution to publish papers and books directly from orgmode? ODT Ypo> exporting sends some error message to me, but at least I Ypo> understand it. Ypo> HTML: I have seen some themes designed to export in LaTeX Ypo> format using HTML. Here we would have the "definitive tool": Ypo> The power of LaTeX in the versatility that could give the use Ypo> of different themes for different purposes. But, do you think Ypo> it could get, some day, the quality of a direct LaTeX export? Ypo> No errors by my side when exporting to HTML. Ypo> How do you think I should spend some hundreds (or thousands) of Ypo> hours to achieve maestry exporting my documents? Ypo> Best regards.