From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Richard Lawrence Subject: Re: Citations, continued Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2015 18:48:58 -0800 Message-ID: <86siedkvs5.fsf@berkeley.edu> References: <87vbjmn6wy.fsf@berkeley.edu> <54d04780.cb58460a.5243.2603@mx.google.com> <87h9v3li8t.fsf@berkeley.edu> <54d078ff.b044440a.06ec.3cf6@mx.google.com> <87d25rkmag.fsf@berkeley.edu> <54d1bc7b.c57d440a.3c5d.2dca@mx.google.com> <87vbjh284z.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87mw4tk4m7.fsf@berkeley.edu> <87oap7z664.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87fvaibr3k.fsf@berkeley.edu> <87y4o9s5qc.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87d25kpxap.fsf@pank.eu> <87k2zsso3w.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87vbjcoewx.fsf@gmx.us> <87bnl4shqg.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87h9uwwmgt.fsf@gmx.us> <87zj8oqqtz.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87386eywus.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <8661b9n47j.fsf@berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37298) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLNMT-0006CJ-Af for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:49:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLNMQ-0006ZQ-38 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:49:09 -0500 Received: from plane.gmane.org ([80.91.229.3]:49238) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1YLNMP-0006Yg-SK for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 10 Feb 2015 21:49:06 -0500 Received: from list by plane.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1YLNMO-0000CV-Am for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 03:49:04 +0100 Received: from c-67-169-117-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([67.169.117.151]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 03:49:04 +0100 Received: from richard.lawrence by c-67-169-117-151.hsd1.ca.comcast.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 2015 03:49:04 +0100 List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Hi Tom and all, tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes: > Richard Lawrence writes: > >> Conceptually, something like `@key:year' isn't a citation, but merely >> indirection, because it doesn't actually provide the reader of the >> rendered document enough information to look up the reference. I think >> we can cut down on the number of `citation' types that the syntax should >> support if we distinguish citations from indirection like this. > > I don't think this concept holds in the LaTeX world. I'm fairly certain > that citation commands like \citeauthor and \citeyear create an entry in > the bibliography. Fair enough. I just meant that something like "As the reader may verify, \citeyear{Doe99} fails to make any progress on this issue." doesn't render into a form that allows the reader to know which work is being talked about, even if that work appears in the bibliography; the author has to supply more context for it to make sense. Thus, \citeyear and friends are more of a convenience for the author than commands to produce a (complete) citation that the reader can use. But I don't really care so much about the right definition of "citation" as about the fact that supporting an equivalent for these commands in non-LaTeX backends strikes me as really hard, which makes me wonder if the effort required to support them is worth the convenience gained by representing them in the main citation syntax. It seems like it would be hard because providing equivalents for things like \citeauthor or \citetitle in, say, HTML would require the exporter to know a *lot* about how to format names and titles in the context where those citations appear. This is a very non-trivial problem. But perhaps the exporter could rely on an external CSL processor for things like this? I don't really know if CSL can handle this kind of `partial' citation -- if it can, and if CSL is part of the plan for exporting citations in non-LaTeX backends, then I have no real objection to representing them in the citation syntax, because they are indeed convenient. Best, Richard