From: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [FR] Display stderr contents after executing shell blocks (even when stdout :results output is requested) (was: Org 9.6-pre and Bash sessions)
Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2022 07:28:37 +1100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <865yg1c7is.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87tu3njmv4.fsf@localhost>
Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
> Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:
>
>> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
>>
>>> I do not think that it make sense to display that buffer when the code
>>> finishes successfully. I can see this kind of behaviour
>>> breaking/spamming automated scripts or export---code working in the
>>> past may throw error output into unsuspecting users.
>>
>> But the exit code has nothing to do with the standard error.
>>
>> Unix programs can, and often do, halt with non-zero exit codes while
>> producing error output containing important information, such as
>> deprecation warnings. Further, many programs use error output as the
>> alternative "anything but the result" stream.
>>
>> Preserving user data, instead of trashing it, data does not count as
>> "spamming ... unsuspected users". On the contrary!
>>
>> For example, I use a program for work that uploads data to a certain
>> 3rd-party server. It exits with a zero code but also shows extremely
>> important notices on error output. As an "unsuspecting user", if I used
>> Babel to run the program, I would end up in a trouble.
>>
>> So, we should never implicitly trash user-generated data, let alone
>> based on a "completely made up" belief that a non-zero exit code somehow
>> implies "no important error output". It does not.
>>
>> (I speak only about Unix-like systems here. Perhaps on other operating
>> systems, things work differently.)
>
> Dear All,
>
> As explained in the above quote, it may be reasonable to display stderr
> in the shell (and possibly other) src blocks upon execution.
>
> + Stderr may contain important information even if the code block
> succeeds
> - Displaying stderr will raise *Error* buffer, which may or may not be
> expected or desired.
>
> What do you think?
I think this is perhaps the tip of a more complex iceberg. Not sure if
we can address bits individually. Suspect we are better off
clarifying the basic babel model and then look at specific language
exceptions/limits and adjusting the model or documenting where back ends
need to diverge from the basic model.
Part of the challenge here is that the relevance/importance of stderr is
somewhat dependent on the language. Same holds true for handling of
error/return codes and to 'results' output.
For me, this is another symptom of our need to define a clearer model
for babel processes so that we can get some consistency across the
board. Such a model would likely also make it easier for people to
develop new babel back ends. We may even need 2 models, one for
interactive/repl based back ends and one for non-interactive/scripted
back ends.
The 2 big questions I see are "What should be defaults be?" and "How do
we handle the options without adding lots of new switches or suffering
an option permutation blow out?".
I do agree with the other posts regarding the importance of stderr.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-10-30 21:44 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 37+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-10-13 15:14 Org 9.6-pre and Bash sessions Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-13 17:07 ` Michael Welle
2022-10-14 3:44 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-15 20:56 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-17 8:34 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-21 5:29 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-21 13:38 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-22 4:22 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-22 9:44 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-22 10:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-23 4:27 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-26 11:56 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-26 13:21 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-27 3:53 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-28 13:12 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-28 13:29 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-28 21:52 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-29 4:05 ` [FR] Display stderr contents after executing shell blocks (even when stdout :results output is requested) (was: Org 9.6-pre and Bash sessions) Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-29 6:14 ` tomas
2022-10-29 6:43 ` Samuel Wales
2022-10-29 9:00 ` tomas
2022-10-29 9:09 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-29 9:18 ` tomas
2022-10-30 3:31 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-30 6:11 ` tomas
2022-10-30 7:09 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-30 8:18 ` tomas
2022-10-29 11:58 ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-30 3:37 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-30 20:28 ` Tim Cross [this message]
2022-10-31 1:13 ` Org babel API (was: [FR] Display stderr contents after executing shell blocks (even when stdout :results output is requested) (was: Org 9.6-pre and Bash sessions)) Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-31 2:03 ` Tim Cross
2022-10-31 3:12 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-29 4:05 ` Org 9.6-pre and Bash sessions Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-03 16:30 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-11-04 2:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-05 1:12 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
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