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[2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:842a:7361:87c7:2662]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y192-20020a62cec9000000b0052d3ea78858sm544592pfg.127.2022.08.09.18.52.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:52:26 -0700 (PDT) References: <875ykikvaz.fsf@localhost> <87sfnlk0tj.fsf@localhost> <874jzg5bg7.fsf@gnu.org> <87les9l9wv.fsf@localhost> <87pmhad9gv.fsf@gnu.org> User-agent: mu4e 1.8.8; emacs 29.0.50 From: Tim Cross To: Tom Gillespie Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [PATCH] Delete some Emacs 24 compat code Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 11:13:12 +1000 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <864jykhnl4.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1660096390; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=w9hYjCiO6pSDYP3R6vsKGw1o80SHRkSevp37vabxIYQ=; b=hcMTOTMefxMtnctGATbbqSfg4l/Kvfx8y7vQnUwuLkEEj0V41L+NBtr44WSYhyqDUOcCGU cCIw+4Wpj30UoBksnOzmhw8W6Qq3H7C9B21EqMOLgVZzYiBEab+vZC1lsbfE4xgjHfHHYD Z57m4BLtsPcLMm2ueLrYnXsu5gm2ROru1PrMKJ8H0IVJeQJQAvqjoDDfdM69dgcvC0IPel whwY9EqViBFfVpVUnUFY8zqkI9vxK91KmnQOWtdGYK/FP8rEP942l1K8tem+XoKp+bsgAM Ol6T0OyVrPzjMDhgwQHAUeM7feQOMoKQtDW6KNEwmZc1RT/o/bDUlfFKUxkDog== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1660096390; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Z49Hs1QMsHb3s0+UOIxcdDziOlHd0r/axRivfrxhC9fbB5YdB6MbLnry2LoUA2jZMPbore LBrRkuK0HUd2qczVJvSY+BOkckNWFcZmHdvduzCk1D1zktee+y1jBJlK2wvvoYHkRWx1yv PMIyZ5aO8DOa/oY1tmvcAtqodysR2f7pGDu6qSAhIzl+YbpS4WpRIOrPsFJx3Y/ZfI4kQ8 YkmW3iAYPeNBm1HuVIpsFSi96HE6PB1B2kMsNZPLMeOtg4zjhULO1UtTGrLgk3BhPv8l6T d6Ok5LwdH2AvvunsIfFcoiW5qgtMdD466FIkde8noWTyOEXNkdNyzVZXdtBX+g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=UBhmjiLJ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.69 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=UBhmjiLJ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 719692F894 X-Spam-Score: -9.69 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: GZeWCYoIF8ws Tom Gillespie writes: >> Please, keep ";; Package-Requires: " version in org.el consistent with >> such statement (Should it be updated for the bugfix branch as well?). > > Unfortunately it is not clear that this is the right thing to do because > nearly every feature of org may work on old versions. Should we put > users through the pain of having to fight the metadata saying that they > can't run org on an old version of emacs when only a tiny subfeature > may or may not be broken? For example, I can load the current > version of org and go through most of my normal workflows without > issue on 25. > > Package-Requires does not mean what it says, what it actually means > is "actively does not work on any versions not specified" which is not > true if we were to say >=26 and would make users' of older versions > of emacs lives harder. What this means is that we could say >=25 > (which is what org.el current has by listing 25.1) because it is possible > to load current versions of org-mode on 25 but not on 24 (which works > only at 9.4.6 at 652430128896e690dc6ef2a83891a1209094b3da). The manual actually says "If this exists, it names packages on which the current package depends for proper operation." so I think it is reasonable to only list the minimum supported Emacs version, not the minimum version where it partially or fully works, but is not supported. Problem I see with your approach is there will be an expectation that if it lists Emacs 25.x that it works under that version and anything which doesn't work is a bug. People will not check this list, README or NEWS files to verify what version of Emacs is compatible with - if they can use package.el to install it, they will expect that it works without any issues and any encountered are either a configuration error or a bug. Even worse, once a problem with (for example) Emacs 25.x is found, what do we do? Would we have to push out a new version just to now update the requires line and forcing an update for all users? Which commit do we use to push out that update (given there will have been changes since the last release and we may not be ready to push them out in a new version yet). An alternative approach is to deliberately make it harder to upgrade org if your running an unsupported version of Emacs. This would prevent automatic updates to a version which is not supported and (possibly) doe sot work, either partially or fully. Manage user expectations by making it very explicit to the end user they are running a older version of emacs which may not be compatible with latest version of org.They can either decide to continue with the existing version they have installed or they can upgrade to a more recent Emacs or they can install org manually if they really want to accept the risk and run in an unsupported configuration.