From: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
To: Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de>
Cc: org-mode mailing list <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>,
Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: Custom entry IDs in HTML export
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 23:26:48 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <70EC5312-4BB8-4A7F-A2AD-7B96CBF7C068@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87hc0ob9wc.fsf@kassiopeya.MSHEIMNETZ>
On Apr 16, 2009, at 10:50 PM, Sebastian Rose wrote:
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>> Hi Sebastian,
>>
>> On Apr 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Sebastian Rose wrote:
>>
>>> Hm - counter arguments?
>>>
>>> The only counter argument is, that hand made IDs for links are
>>> prone to
>>> error. But that risk should be up to the user.
>>
>> Yes. and during the export, I can actually check and throw a
>> warning or an
>> error if the same custom ID shows up twice.
>>
>>>
>>> I actually changed my mind a little in this concern.
>>>
>>> If the user clicks a section link in the toc to jump to a section,
>>> he
>>> can bookmark the page with exactly that jump target. If the jump
>>> target
>>> (the ID) is human readable, the bookmark is more verbose.
>>
>> Yes, this is really the best application. Also, when hovering over
>> internal
>> links, it is helpful if the link displays the human-readable form.
>>
>>> Just one wish:
>>>
>>> The containers should reflect that change (HRID = human readable
>>> id):
>>>
>>> <div id="outline-container-HRID">
>>> <h4 id="HRID"> headline </h4>
>>> <div id="outline-text-HRID">
>>> sections content...
>>> </div>
>>> </div>
>>
>>
>> Sure, we can do this. I would then add sec-xxx as one
>> of the alternative anchors as well.
>>
>> However: If I make the structure as you indicate above,
>> do I understand correctly that the structure of a section without a
>> human-readable id should be changed to this:
>>
>> <div id="outline-container-sec-1.1">
>> <h4 id="sec-1.1"> headline </h4>
>> <div id="outline-text-sec-1.1">
>> sections content...
>> </div>
>> </div>
>>
>>
>> Note the "sec-" which is added to the stuff that currently
>> defines the structure.
>
>
>
> I considered the `sec-' part of the automatic IDs.
>
> In either case I'd have to adjust org-info.js. So why not go for the
> human readable IDs without `sec-'?
>
>
> Right now we have:
>
> <div id="outline-container-2" class="outline-2">
> <h2 id="sec-2"><span class="section-number-2">2</span> Things I want
> to find out </h2>
> <div class="outline-text-2" id="text-2">
>
> The `sec-' part is in the headlines ID only.
Why? Because this introduced a parsing inconsistency for you between
automatic and custom IDs. Because for the automatic ones, you need to
strip "sec-" to retrieve the correct suffix for the container etc
names. With the custom IDs, no such stripping should be done. Does
this not make things harder?
- Carsten
>
>
>
> Sebastian
>
>
>
>
>>> That way the script would keep working with older pages.
>>> Automatic IDs and human readable ones could be mixed.
>>>
>>>
>>> The '<a id="">' anchors are scanned anyway, as are all jump
>>> targets in
>>> the page.
>>
>> Yes, you implemented that some time ago, I remember.
>>
>>>
>>> Maybe this is even the point to re-work the parser of org-info.js to
>>> become independent of the TOC at all. The script could search for
>>> headings instead. That's more work, but the script would then work
>>> for
>>> all HTML pages with a structure similar to the org-export's one:
>>
>> So this would mean, we could read web pages with your java
>> support even if those webpages were not created with Org?
>> Pretty cool.
>>
>>> <div id=""><hx id=""></hx><div>content</div></div>
>>>
>>> but I could postpone this, if you fullfill my wish above.
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>>
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Apr 16, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Sebastian Rose wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Hi Sebastian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I kind of like the idea to have a property that can be
>>>>>> used to set an ID, as an alternative to the <<target>>
>>>>>> notation. Actually, using a property seems a lot cleaner,
>>>>>> thanks for coming up with this idea, Daniel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can also follow the reasoning that it is useful to have
>>>>>> the table of contents link to the human-readable id, because
>>>>>> it provides a general, simple workflow to retrieve a link that
>>>>>> will persist through changes of the document. This workflow
>>>>>> was described also by Bernt earlier in this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I also agree that the main id in the <h3> tag
>>>>>> should be the automatically generated one because this is
>>>>>> best for automatic processing and because of all the arguments
>>>>>> you have presented.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Would it cause problems for org-info.js if the toc points to
>>>>>> a user specified anchor in the headline, instead of the main
>>>>>> ID that is inside the <h3> tag? THis would really be the only
>>>>>> required change.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll have to test this before I can give a final answer to this
>>>>> question.
>>>>>
>>>>> But regardless of the results, I will adjust the script to
>>>>> reflect that
>>>>> change. The script should not rule the HTML export and it will
>>>>> be an
>>>>> easy thing to do.
>>>>
>>>> But I do want to hear any counter arguments you might have....
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sebastian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> - Carsten
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Daniel Clemente wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> El dv, mar 27 2009, Sebastian Rose va escriure:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What we have now, just as Carstens said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Creates this headline in HTML:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <h2 id="sec-2"><a name="human-readable" id="human-readable"></
>>>>>>>> a>2 Section B
>>>>>>>> </h2>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is enough for all the use cases I can think of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, this is enough except for two things:
>>>>>>> 1. The TOC still links to #sec-2 and the user can't change that
>>>>>>> 2. Your syntax doesn't fold very well in the outliner. I mean:
>>>>>>> if you use
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> then the comment appears at the end of the previous section,
>>>>>>> and you can
>>>>>>> miss
>>>>>>> it when you are viewing the heading „Section B“. I would swap
>>>>>>> both lines
>>>>>>> (solution 1):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But since there are already LOGBOOK drawers under the heading,
>>>>>>> it would be
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> lot clearer to use a property, like EXPORT_ID (solution 2):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>>> :PROPERTIES:
>>>>>>>> :EXPORT_ID: human-readable
>>>>>>>> :END:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In this way, the TOC can reliably find the EXPORT_ID, and then
>>>>>>> generate:
>>>>>>>> <h2 id="sec-2"><a name="human-readable" id="human-readable"></
>>>>>>>> a>2 Section B
>>>>>>>> </h2>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (You could also leave *just* the human-readable id, but having
>>>>>>> two is not
>>>>>>> bad.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would prefer solution 1, but I don't because I'm not sure
>>>>>>> that the TOC
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> find the ID if it is written as a comment anywhere under the
>>>>>>> heading (and
>>>>>>> together with other things).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Solution 2 involves thus: a new property to specify the human-
>>>>>>> readable entry ID, which will be used to link to the entry.
>>>>>>> The automatic
>>>>>>> ID
>>>>>>> (#sec-2) will still work for all entrys.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * Distinguishing automatic and human readable IDs
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One thing I like is, that we now _can_ distinguish the
>>>>>>>> `human-readable-target' (human readable) from the
>>>>>>>> `sec-2' (not human
>>>>>>>> readable and not context related) using a regular expression.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In org-info.js, I can now prefere the human readable ID in
>>>>>>>> <a> from an
>>>>>>>> automatic created one, and thus use that to create the links
>>>>>>>> for `l'
>>>>>>>> and `L'. The same holds true for other programming languages
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> parsers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If we open the <h3>'s ID for user defined values (bad), we
>>>>>>>> can not
>>>>>>>> distinguish those ID's using a regular expression and there
>>>>>>>> is no way
>>>>>>>> to detect the human readable one. There will be no way to
>>>>>>>> _know_ that
>>>>>>>> the <a>'s ID is the prefered one used for human readable links.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Solution 2 doesn't break the parsing techniques you use; in
>>>>>>> fact it can
>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>> make clearer which ID is the human readable one and which one
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not extremely important; just useful:
>>>>>>> - for pages with many incoming links from external sites
>>>>>>> - to ensure link integrity (now you can't assure that links
>>>>>>> will still
>>>>>>> work
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> 1 year ... or in some weeks)
>>>>>>> - to avoid that HTML visitors get directed to a wrong section
>>>>>>> and can't
>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>> what they searched
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449
>>>>> Hannover
>>>>> Tel.: +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
>>>>> Fax: +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
>>>>> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
>>>>> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
>>>>> Http: www.emma-stil.de
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449
>>> Hannover
>>> Tel.: +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
>>> Fax: +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
>>> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
>>> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
>>> Http: www.emma-stil.de
>>
>
> --
> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449
> Hannover
> Tel.: +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
> Fax: +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
> Http: www.emma-stil.de
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-04-16 21:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 14+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-03-27 12:47 Custom entry IDs in HTML export Daniel Clemente
2009-03-27 16:16 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-03-27 17:57 ` Bernt Hansen
2009-03-27 21:32 ` Sebastian Rose
2009-03-30 11:49 ` Daniel Clemente
2009-04-16 6:55 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-04-16 8:50 ` Sebastian Rose
2009-04-16 11:28 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-04-16 13:14 ` Sebastian Rose
2009-04-16 17:14 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-04-16 20:50 ` Sebastian Rose
2009-04-16 21:26 ` Carsten Dominik [this message]
2009-04-16 22:37 ` Sebastian Rose
2009-04-17 4:11 ` Carsten Dominik
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