From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>
Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::])
	(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS
	id qFjwC3YbpmBCIgAAgWs5BA
	(envelope-from <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 20 May 2021 10:19:02 +0200
Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::])
	(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	by mp2 with LMTPS
	id WPoZB3YbpmBBFgAAB5/wlQ
	(envelope-from <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 20 May 2021 08:19:02 +0000
Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EAD416007
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 20 May 2021 10:19:01 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from localhost ([::1]:41030 helo=lists1p.gnu.org)
	by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1)
	(envelope-from <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	id 1ljdtT-0001i7-Kn
	for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 04:18:59 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46318)
 by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <denismaier@mailbox.org>)
 id 1ljdfU-0006ev-0X
 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 04:04:32 -0400
Received: from mout-p-101.mailbox.org ([2001:67c:2050::465:101]:35718)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <denismaier@mailbox.org>)
 id 1ljdfO-0004xa-AR
 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 20 May 2021 04:04:31 -0400
Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org
 [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:2:0])
 (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)
 key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest
 SHA256) (No client certificate requested)
 by mout-p-101.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Fm2MB2GNCzQk25;
 Thu, 20 May 2021 10:04:22 +0200 (CEST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailbox.org; h=
 content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to
 :mime-version:date:date:message-id:from:from:references:subject
 :subject:received; s=mail20150812; t=1621497859; bh=30/ixWmedfEv
 PCLJNN5sij0MI47eZcdZ9N1+xhXXwtY=; b=Vop9K/l17hyLJqRJf2WKISehcp32
 o8f7FHG8IXcK+TsKNui1OyqBQc5YTCor+bCcjyOwp7d2wg04/AtwMyP7zaYq9DY6
 +FuF01hVSZ00wbCH3owkCSTHZHbhOcWzSBs4LnOnUgG6yutVW/MB4ztAcYV4uDfI
 /+yUt2oPGwbohzFFYT9L9+ztdDTvc4eka5/7WfQmNWurxzChJ5NpsLmAe2L90jiu
 /rVrA+neWos5aaJTx/N5dpzseCtuGFkek87O0Y2K3HJbNvOlbF2tbITRwt56hsFP
 +d6ImRx+bBmNU9HqOckeetGtPJ7+ZUIeq70Qj75ge95X413lIDkDwZ5M/w==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org;
 s=mail20150812; t=1621497860;
 h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id:
 to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type:
 content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:
 in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references;
 bh=cLFklo45IduRlfUtIRwlZdingY7rvw8e/tu0ZuIpgAE=;
 b=dNwl/zJL1x7ayapvzmSvrUlFLHF8w8Re7Jln9ucmPWHS5E4GxMlYduvI0gid2+TLwIlDQK
 cxnpKZ2ib2zqC+sSNOTW5mcfFjoci3QsrIRSJ1lsedhvypRcHGfFRQD9myXXkkC2FlA8sP
 sOD7lgEDdtrrpJy4xN1ZTcBxK3AaLNSxetAnpeO/pBNFWutYFbHJwgn/lu1S3rNYRMdP9I
 vE7n1g1aeQNUXQgvdlOtfNRqTsgj2SOlfdK4vDqXPTCteBgzsrXP1oNZcTqSjG+CcZubg5
 HTlypKilT+pfaUF57Btz7uQHxB5Z7kSYk7o9WH9va6EWhag8Aro1894hwGbEhw==
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de
Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241])
 by spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter04.heinlein-hosting.de
 [80.241.56.122]) (amavisd-new, port 10030)
 with ESMTP id 4PxoIRxOhQBA; Thu, 20 May 2021 10:04:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Initial implementation of `biblatex' citation
 processor
To: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>,
 Org Mode List <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
References: <87bl985b3h.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
 <10eb58b2-5da3-b768-cf56-87aa447346d7@mailbox.org>
 <CAF-FPGOz8bRH602p0hzRDQJF4+YQGMY+ppRyEz4QFfiP=1GboQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5a23225d-118a-d08e-a1d7-f9fe3791c1bf@mailbox.org>
 <87lf8a4z3a.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
 <52aade3f-3e8e-bd56-109e-c6cfd9254915@mailbox.org>
 <87mtsq3fy1.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
From: Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>
Message-ID: <605c9586-384c-c4d4-d827-f97b1baf7c84@mailbox.org>
Date: Thu, 20 May 2021 10:04:18 +0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <87mtsq3fy1.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MBO-SPAM-Probability: 
X-Rspamd-Score: -3.31 / 15.00 / 15.00
X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 45AF917DF
X-Rspamd-UID: c76149
Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:67c:2050::465:101;
 envelope-from=denismaier@mailbox.org; helo=mout-p-101.mailbox.org
X-Spam_score_int: -27
X-Spam_score: -2.8
X-Spam_bar: --
X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1,
 DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1,
 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
X-Spam_action: no action
X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23
Precedence: list
List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." <emacs-orgmode.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/emacs-orgmode>,
 <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode>
List-Post: <mailto:emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode>,
 <mailto:emacs-orgmode-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org
Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" <emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>
X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org;
	s=key1; t=1621498741;
	h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:
	 message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:
	 content-type:content-type:
	 content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:
	 in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help:
	 list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature;
	bh=cLFklo45IduRlfUtIRwlZdingY7rvw8e/tu0ZuIpgAE=;
	b=LNq3YGgVRo6p5n41rTufB1ZebkOS2MFeGzCxmZiUQ7xHGWeTNAgTjzyVQh8YexY9XMHphb
	UfOuOQ3Yy6fbJfcq44+BSychxioYYtaptBWHIqfT7yWHQVZ+yPyTYPHeya5kOcGKH/Oyve
	CkjQUwV81vN2DVtdrFIiZYX3l34uil4gXg1JXi1516BCqPFpHJOR+ay9HXDicWnJjEI4WT
	lFnp0PCPKk/v7jAOW5PfMSqec5tXlWsiZ0yodm7oXJWlPGwYtA6uxuZTky4EKXvpWDxo01
	LHKZf/dlQOVSBEYhCJgxO5czxmzhvOfaB8yjGjs2uvwWZgKuyJdqzR5OrzbI+Q==
ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621498741; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none;
	b=Md83nUX8eQKMIQPfBifnHSTe9n39QG+a5qlG4rjft1kUoI5InbN1ky1uMSixz91n2CXM30
	ocuuE6HD+a2SAHBHKJKcNkEtmmLOjPY9NtWE/FGC2L0vwCF2LSE7cS8vb+FOFZkjjIVczI
	e0EWE9IE5iVGq4ubo6/u6dNUfrnIJv0IREacH9HwkBBThVPL9h3EjRCrhTmqL9v9VcX69e
	whC89w37BRWi+Z1zDZetd4JRe/uRzNoMUaKFWTOnC28HuWpHJlZ/FPghOTBJ30TrIGHpBd
	fzuarwctKB+Lz85Mws8VLLH/GtcU1ts0jxRlr6Fvgruw5e6QbO+0lZ+lfJoKOA==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1;
	aspmx1.migadu.com;
	dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="Vop9K/l1";
	dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="dNwl/zJL";
	dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org;
	spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org
X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14
Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com;
	dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="Vop9K/l1";
	dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b="dNwl/zJL";
	dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org;
	spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org
X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 2EAD416007
X-Spam-Score: -3.14
X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com
X-TUID: XiJptsQle8Ny

Am 19.05.2021 um 17:23 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou:
> Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> writes:
>> In that case, I'd think that note/bare => footcitecite isn't
>> a particular good fit. Footcitetext puts the citation in a footnote,
>> just that it doesn't print a footnote mark in a running text.
>> (This is useful in cases where the regular footnote mechanism in LaTeX
>> doesn't work, e.g. in headings or tables. In these cases you' can
>> place the mark manually with \footnotemark, and later you specify the
>> text with \footnotetext, or in that case with \footcitetext.)
> 
> OK, I'll remove it.
> 
> What about also removing \footcite altogether? We could simply
> automatically wrap the citation in a inline footnote before exporting
> the document. No need for a special command.
> 

No, I wouldn't suggest that unless you want to deal with capitalization 
at the beginning of footnotes, which \footcite does automatically.
#+begin_example
	\documentclass{article}
	\begin{filecontents}{\jobname.bib}
	@book{doe,
	author = {Doe, John},
	title = {On using biblatex with orgmode},
	year = {2021},
	}
	\end{filecontents}
	\usepackage[style=authortitle-ibid]{biblatex}
	\addbibresource{\jobname.bib}

	\begin{document}
	Test.\footcite{doe}
	Test.\footcite{doe} % "ibid." -> "Ibid."

	\citereset
	Test.\footnote{\cite{doe}.}
	Test.\footnote{\cite{doe}.} "ibid." stays "ibid."
	\end{document}
#+end_example


> Org already handles footnotes in headings and tables, so there may be no
> need to footcitetext either…
> 
>> Regarding:
>>> | locators  | bare      | notecite     |
>>> | locators  | caps      | Pnotecite    |
>>> | locators  | bare-caps | Notecite     |
>>> | locators  |           | pnotecite    |
>>
>> fnotecite should be added.
> 
> Under what style/variant combination?

| locators  | bare      | notecite     |
| locators  | caps      | Pnotecite    |
| locators  | bare-caps | Notecite     |
| locators  | foot      | fnotecite    |
| locators  |           | pnotecite    |
> 
>>> One problem is there is no "\cite", or "\parencite". I though they would
>>> make a good fit for the default style, "\cite" being the "bare" variant
>>> of "\parencite", and "\autocite" could be moved to a "auto" style. I'm
>>> not sure where to put \cite, then.
>>
>> Why not just add a cite/parens style?
> 
> OK.
> 
>> \cite could be [cite/bare: ...]
> 
> This would be confusing. So far, "bare" is a style variant. Your
> suggestion promotes it exceptionally to a full-fledged style. It hurts
> my logic. :)
> 
> Could "\cite" be [cite/parens/bare:...] instead?

Could be, but also [cite/text/bare] or cite/foot/bare or cite/super/bare 
as they all are essentially just wrappers around the plain cite command 
(textcite is a bit different, but parencite and footcite really have the 
same definition as cite, the only difference being that they add some 
kind of wrapper.)
So, starting from parencite and then removing the wrapper would my logic 
instead ;-)
But maybe cite/plain or cite/basic or so?

By the way, I have the impression we can easily get rid of the 
bare-variants completely. If we don't need footcitetext (or if we rename 
the variant to note/text as that would be more appropriate, we can 
something like this:


| Style     | Variant       | Command      |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| author    | caps          | Citeauthor*  |
| author    | full          | citeauthor   |
| author    | caps-full     | Citeauthor   |
| author    |               | citeauthor   |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| title     | full          | citetitle*   |
| title     |               | citetitle    |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| year      | full          | citeyear*    |
| year      |               | citeyear     |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| locators  | parens        | pnotecite    |
| locators  | parens-caps   | Pnotecite    |
| locators  | foot          | fnotecite    |
| locators  | caps          | Notecite     |
| locators  |               | notecite     |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| nocite    |               | nocite       |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| note      | text          | footcitetext |
| note      |               | footcite     |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| smart     | caps          | Smartcite    |
| smart     |               | smartcite    |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| super     |               | supercite    |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| foot      |               | footcite     |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| text      | caps          | Textcite     |
| text      |               | textcite     |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| parens    | noauthor-caps | Parencite*   |
| parens    | noauthor      | parencite*   |
| parens    | caps          | Parencite    |
| parens    |               | parencite    |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| plain     | noauthor-caps | Cite*        |
| plain     | noauthor      | cite*        |
| plain     | caps          | Cite         |
| plain     |               | cite         |
|-----------+---------------+--------------|
| (default) | caps          | Autocite     |
| (default) |               | autocite     |


> 
> Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion about autocite being the default.
> If it makes sense and we can put \cite elsewhere, let's use that.

Well, see the revised table above. WDYT?

Denis