an annoying indentation

an annoying indentation

[Leo]

Dear list,

Anyone else find the following annoying?

*** heading 1
- item 1
- item 2

Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,

*** heading 1
    - item 1
      - item 2

Best,
-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: an annoying indentation

[William Henney]

Hi Leo

On 6/12/07, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyone else find the following annoying?
>

Yes, but...

> *** heading 1
> - item 1
> - item 2
>
> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
>
> *** heading 1
>     - item 1
>       - item 2
>

... I reported this to the list last week and Carsten pointed out that
it was impossible to tell whether "item 2" represented a continuation
of the same list or the start of a new nested list. Although I agree
with him, I feel that a saner default would be to assume the former.
After all, the same reasoning applies to headings, and they /do/ work
how I would expect.

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: an annoying indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jun 12, 2007, at 17:13, Leo wrote:

> Dear list,
>
> Anyone else find the following annoying?
>
> *** heading 1
> - item 1
> - item 2
>
> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
>
> *** heading 1
>     - item 1
>       - item 2

The question I have is: why would you press TAB if not to indent?

- Carsten

>
> Best,
> -- 
> Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>

--
Carsten Dominik
Sterrenkundig Instituut "Anton Pannekoek"
Universiteit van Amsterdam
Kruislaan 403
NL-1098SJ Amsterdam
phone: +31 20 525 7477

Re: an annoying indentation

[William Henney]

On 6/12/07, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
> The question I have is: why would you press TAB if not to indent?

Well, in most major modes TAB means "fix the indentation of this
line", rather than "do some more indentation here" (the only exception
I can think of is "shell-script-mode"). In Leo's example, it looks
like he typed "item 1" and "item 2", then went back to fix the
indentation with TAB. It worked for "item 1", but not for "item 2".

Hope this makes things clearer.

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: an annoying indentation

[Rick Moynihan]

Leo wrote:
> Dear list,
> 
> Anyone else find the following annoying?
> 
> *** heading 1
> - item 1
> - item 2
> 
> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
> 
> *** heading 1
>     - item 1
>       - item 2
> 
> Best,

I must admit I do run into this on occasion and it is a little annoying. 
  It would (IMHO) be better if the first push of tab aligned with '- 
item 1', with subsequent tabs indenting to the next level.  You should 
however be restricted to only going one level deeper than the above item.

This said I usually create list items at the same level of indentation 
with M-Return.


-- 
Rick Moynihan
Software Engineer
Calico Jack LTD
http://www.calicojack.co.uk/

Re: an annoying indentation

[Eddward DeVilla]

On 6/12/07, Rick Moynihan <rick@calicojack.co.uk> wrote:
> Leo wrote:
> > Dear list,
> >
> > Anyone else find the following annoying?
> >
> > *** heading 1
> > - item 1
> > - item 2
> >
> > Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
> >
> > *** heading 1
> >     - item 1
> >       - item 2
> >
> > Best,
>
> I must admit I do run into this on occasion and it is a little annoying.
>   It would (IMHO) be better if the first push of tab aligned with '-
> item 1', with subsequent tabs indenting to the next level.  You should
> however be restricted to only going one level deeper than the above item.
>
> This said I usually create list items at the same level of indentation
> with M-Return.

I hit this a bit, but I'm pretty quick with C-S-_.  Likewise I use
M-return and M-S-return pretty religiously now.  My problem is that
M-right will insert spaces into the following line when it is blank.
I keep having to clear the following line after inserting and
indenting a list entry at the end of a list.

Edd

Re: an annoying indentation

[J. David Boyd]

Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:

> On Jun 12, 2007, at 17:13, Leo wrote:
>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> Anyone else find the following annoying?
>>
>> *** heading 1
>> - item 1
>> - item 2
>>
>> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
>>
>> *** heading 1
>>     - item 1
>>       - item 2
>
> The question I have is: why would you press TAB if not to indent?
>
> - Carsten
>
>>

Maybe the OP is used to using TAB to format text, as in a C or Java program.
TAB just 'does the right thing' in cc-mode (I think it is), so to some people
it becomes automatic to use TAB to keep the document looking good.

Not a good idea in this case, of course!

Dave

Re: Re: an annoying indentation

[William Henney]

I wonder if my messages have been getting through to the list OK. I
get responses from Carsten, but everyone else carries on as though
they hadn't read them :(

Cheers

Will

On 6/12/07, J. David Boyd <david@adboyd.com> wrote:
> Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:
>
> > On Jun 12, 2007, at 17:13, Leo wrote:
> >
> >> Dear list,
> >>
> >> Anyone else find the following annoying?
> >>
> >> *** heading 1
> >> - item 1
> >> - item 2
> >>
> >> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
> >>
> >> *** heading 1
> >>     - item 1
> >>       - item 2
> >
> > The question I have is: why would you press TAB if not to indent?
> >
> > - Carsten
> >
> >>
>
> Maybe the OP is used to using TAB to format text, as in a C or Java program.
> TAB just 'does the right thing' in cc-mode (I think it is), so to some people
> it becomes automatic to use TAB to keep the document looking good.
>
> Not a good idea in this case, of course!
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>


-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: an annoying indentation

[Leo]

----- William Henney (2007-06-12) wrote:-----

> Hi Leo
>
> On 6/12/07, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anyone else find the following annoying?
>>
>
> Yes, but...
>
>> *** heading 1
>> - item 1
>> - item 2
>>
>> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
>>
>> *** heading 1
>>     - item 1
>>       - item 2
>>
>
> ... I reported this to the list last week and Carsten pointed out that
> it was impossible to tell whether "item 2" represented a continuation
> of the same list or the start of a new nested list. Although I agree
> with him, I feel that a saner default would be to assume the former.
> After all, the same reasoning applies to headings, and they /do/ work
> how I would expect.
>
> Cheers
>
> Will

I think item 2 should be aligned to item 1 as the same level after TAB. If users
want a sublist they could easily use 'M-<right>' to do that.

However, when an item of the list is not aligned with its heading, the
quickest way is to use 'TAB'.

-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: an annoying indentation

[Leo]

----- Carsten Dominik (2007-06-12) wrote:-----

>> *** heading 1
>> - item 1
>> - item 2
>>
>> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
>>
>> *** heading 1
>>     - item 1
>>       - item 2
>
> The question I have is: why would you press TAB if not to indent?

But in my case I use 'TAB' to indent. I feel 'item 2' should indent to
the same level as item 1.

-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: an annoying indentation

[J. David Boyd]

It's just time lag.  We read your message, we all respond, you respond, a
while later, your response shows up, longer later, our responses show up.

Dave


"William Henney" <whenney@gmail.com> writes:

> I wonder if my messages have been getting through to the list OK. I
> get responses from Carsten, but everyone else carries on as though
> they hadn't read them :(
>
> Cheers
>
> Will
>
> On 6/12/07, J. David Boyd <david@adboyd.com> wrote:
>> Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> writes:
>>
>> > On Jun 12, 2007, at 17:13, Leo wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear list,
>> >>
>> >> Anyone else find the following annoying?
>> >>
>> >> *** heading 1
>> >> - item 1
>> >> - item 2
>> >>
>> >> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
>> >>
>> >> *** heading 1
>> >>     - item 1
>> >>       - item 2
>> >
>> > The question I have is: why would you press TAB if not to indent?
>> >
>> > - Carsten
>> >
>> >>
>>
>> Maybe the OP is used to using TAB to format text, as in a C or Java program.
>> TAB just 'does the right thing' in cc-mode (I think it is), so to some people
>> it becomes automatic to use TAB to keep the document looking good.
>>
>> Not a good idea in this case, of course!
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
>  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
>  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: an annoying indentation

[Jonathan Moore]

Leo <sdl.web <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> ----- Carsten Dominik (2007-06-12) wrote:-----
> 
> >> *** heading 1
> >> - item 1
> >> - item 2
> >>
> >> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
> >>
> >> *** heading 1
> >>     - item 1
> >>       - item 2
> >
> > The question I have is: why would you press TAB if not to indent?
> 
> But in my case I use 'TAB' to indent. I feel 'item 2' should indent to
> the same level as item 1.
> 

I agree with Leo that this behavior is a minor nuisance.  But it is really bad
if one tries an indent-region on a plain list, because indent-region-function is
nil and you get things like:
         - item 1
           - item 2
             line 1
             line 2
             
             - item 3
               - ...

Working out a sensible place to indent to according to the style of previous
list markers does not seem that hard in principle.  I'd be willing to try coding
an option for this.

Re: an annoying indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jun 12, 2007, at 19:36, Eddward DeVilla wrote:

> I hit this a bit, but I'm pretty quick with C-S-_.  Likewise I use
> M-return and M-S-return pretty religiously now.  My problem is that
> M-right will insert spaces into the following line when it is blank.
> I keep having to clear the following line after inserting and
> indenting a list entry at the end of a list.

This problem will disappear in the next version, thanks.

- Carsten

Re: an annoying indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jun 12, 2007, at 19:18, Rick Moynihan wrote:

> Leo wrote:
>> Dear list,
>> Anyone else find the following annoying?
>> *** heading 1
>> - item 1
>> - item 2
>> Now hit tabwith cursor right before '-', it becomes,
>> *** heading 1
>>     - item 1
>>       - item 2
>> Best,
>
> I must admit I do run into this on occasion and it is a little 
> annoying.  It would (IMHO) be better if the first push of tab aligned 
> with '- item 1', with subsequent tabs indenting to the next level.  
> You should however be restricted to only going one level deeper than 
> the above item.

Hmmm, I am not sure if I like different results after one or two
key presses.  If you want to indent deeper, you can use M-right.

How about the following proposal, which would rather consistently
base the indentation on the line before the current.

*** headline
- item 1
- item 2
here we have some text
- item 3

pressing TAB in each of the last 4 lines would give the
following result.

*** headline
     - item 1
     - item 2
       here we have some text
       - item 3

- Carsten

>
> This said I usually create list items at the same level of indentation 
> with M-Return.
>
>
> -- 
> Rick Moynihan
> Software Engineer
> Calico Jack LTD
> http://www.calicojack.co.uk/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>

--
Carsten Dominik
Sterrenkundig Instituut "Anton Pannekoek"
Universiteit van Amsterdam
Kruislaan 403
NL-1098SJ Amsterdam
phone: +31 20 525 7477

Re: an annoying indentation

[Leo]

----- Carsten Dominik (2007-06-14) wrote:-----

> *** headline
>     - item 1
>     - item 2
>       here we have some text
>       - item 3

I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user want
to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.

-- 
Leo <sdl.web AT gmail.com>                         (GPG Key: 9283AA3F)

Re: an annoying indentation

[John Rakestraw]

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> ----- Carsten Dominik (2007-06-14) wrote:-----
> 
> > *** headline
> >     - item 1
> >     - item 2
> >       here we have some text
> >       - item 3

In response to which, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user want
> to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.
> 

I agree with Leo -- or, rather, his proposal matches more nicely the
way I work. I often have lists with some items annotated and others not
annotated -- 

*** headline
     - item 1
       Some notes about item 1, sometimes just a line, but sometimes
       several lines
     - item 2
     - item 3
       Notes here.

(I recognize that others might have practices for which Carsten's
proposal makes more sense, and I could adjust, but ....)

--John

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_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: an annoying indentation

[William Henney]

On 6/14/07, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
> ----- Carsten Dominik (2007-06-14) wrote:-----
>
> > *** headline
> >     - item 1
> >     - item 2
> >       here we have some text
> >       - item 3
>
> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user want
> to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.

Agreed. IMHO hitting TAB on item 3 should produce the same indentation
as hitting M-return on the previous line /unless/ it already has a
deeper indentation than that.

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: an annoying indentation

[pete phillips]

>>>>> "John" == John Rakestraw <lists@johnrakestraw.com> writes:
    John> In response to which, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:

    >> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user
    >> want to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.
    >> 

    John> I agree with Leo -- or, rather, his proposal matches more nicely the
    John> way I work. I often have lists with some items annotated and
    John> others not annotated --

I agree with John and Leo. 

Pete

Re: an annoying indentation

[Rick Moynihan]

pete phillips wrote:
>>>>>> "John" == John Rakestraw <lists@johnrakestraw.com> writes:
>     John> In response to which, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>     >> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user
>     >> want to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.
>     >> 
> 
>     John> I agree with Leo -- or, rather, his proposal matches more nicely the
>     John> way I work. I often have lists with some items annotated and
>     John> others not annotated --
> 
> I agree with John and Leo. 
> 
> Pete
> 

Given that my initial suggestion of multiple TAB presses goes against 
the Emacs grain, I'm also in favour of John of Leo as my lists aren't 
structured in a way consistent with Carsten's proposal.

R.

Re: an annoying indentation

[William Henney]

On 6/14/07, Rick Moynihan <rick@calicojack.co.uk> wrote:
> pete phillips wrote:
> >>>>>> "John" == John Rakestraw <lists@johnrakestraw.com> writes:
> >     John> In response to which, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >     >> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user
> >     >> want to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.
> >     >>
> >
> >     John> I agree with Leo -- or, rather, his proposal matches more nicely the
> >     John> way I work. I often have lists with some items annotated and
> >     John> others not annotated --
> >
> > I agree with John and Leo.
> >
> > Pete
> >
>
> Given that my initial suggestion of multiple TAB presses goes against
> the Emacs grain, I'm also in favour of John of Leo as my lists aren't
> structured in a way consistent with Carsten's proposal.
>

Well, there is a precedent for multiple TAB presses in python mode
(see doc string below). In practice I find it a bit confusing though.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
python-indent-line is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `python.el'.
(python-indent-line)

Indent current line as Python code.
When invoked via `indent-for-tab-command', cycle through possible
indentations for current line.  The cycle is broken by a command
different from `indent-for-tab-command', i.e. successive TABs do
the cycling.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: an annoying indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jun 14, 2007, at 17:02, pete phillips wrote:

>>>>>> "John" == John Rakestraw <lists@johnrakestraw.com> writes:
>     John> In response to which, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user
>>> want to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.
>>>
>
>     John> I agree with Leo -- or, rather, his proposal matches more 
> nicely the
>     John> way I work. I often have lists with some items annotated and
>     John> others not annotated --
>
> I agree with John and Leo.

Wow, what a turnout, and unanimous too.

Note that this will also imply that a list like

- item 1
- item 2
   - item 2a
   - item 2b
- item 3

would be flattened by TAB presses going from top to bottom.

- Carsten

Re: an annoying indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jun 14, 2007, at 17:43, Rick Moynihan wrote:

> pete phillips wrote:
>>>>>>> "John" == John Rakestraw <lists@johnrakestraw.com> writes:
>>     John> In response to which, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
>>     >> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If 
>> user
>>     >> want to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.
>>     >>     John> I agree with Leo -- or, rather, his proposal matches 
>> more nicely the
>>     John> way I work. I often have lists with some items annotated and
>>     John> others not annotated --
>> I agree with John and Leo. Pete
>
> Given that my initial suggestion of multiple TAB presses goes against 
> the Emacs grain, I'm also in favour of John of Leo as my lists aren't 
> structured in a way consistent with Carsten's proposal.

Maybe not really against Emacs grain, but it is certainly not
common to have such a command.  In fact, we have one, C-a, if
turned on with org-special-control-a.

The problem I am seeing really is that the structure of a list
in org-mode is *defined* by indentation.  So there is no
clean way to have TAB automatically do the right thing,
certainly not with indent-region.  So all this discussion
can be about is what a sensible default can be - and you
will have to create the structure yourself anyway.

In this way, I am now tending to agree that a flat list default
makes sense.

- Carsten

Re: an annoying indentation

[Dmitri Minaev]

On 6/15/07, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
>
> Wow, what a turnout, and unanimous too.

I join the majority :)

> Note that this will also imply that a list like
>
> - item 1
> - item 2
>    - item 2a
>    - item 2b
> - item 3
>
> would be flattened by TAB presses going from top to bottom.

Yes, but the list

- item 1
- item 2
   + item 2a
   + item 2b
- item 3

should remain as it is, if you pardon this peremptory remark... :)

-- 
With best regards,
Dmitri Minaev

Russian history blog: http://minaev.blogspot.com

Re: an annoying indentation

[William Henney]

On 6/15/07, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
>
> On Jun 14, 2007, at 17:02, pete phillips wrote:
>
> >>>>>> "John" == John Rakestraw <lists@johnrakestraw.com> writes:
> >     John> In response to which, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> I think '- item 3' still should be aligned to '- item 2'. If user
> >>> want to move the item deeper, 'M-right' can be used.
> >>>
> >
> >     John> I agree with Leo -- or, rather, his proposal matches more
> > nicely the
> >     John> way I work. I often have lists with some items annotated and
> >     John> others not annotated --
> >
> > I agree with John and Leo.
>
> Wow, what a turnout, and unanimous too.
>
> Note that this will also imply that a list like
>
> - item 1
> - item 2
>    - item 2a
>    - item 2b
> - item 3
>
> would be flattened by TAB presses going from top to bottom.
>

Not according to my understanding, since items 2a and 2b would fall
under the "unless it already has a deeper indentation than that"
clause, so TAB wouldn't touch them. I'm not sure that this is what
everyone else is agreeing to though...

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

Re: an annoying indentation

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jun 15, 2007, at 15:44, William Henney wrote:
>> Note that this will also imply that a list like
>>
>> - item 1
>> - item 2
>>    - item 2a
>>    - item 2b
>> - item 3
>>
>> would be flattened by TAB presses going from top to bottom.
>>
>
> Not according to my understanding, since items 2a and 2b would fall
> under the "unless it already has a deeper indentation than that"
> clause, so TAB wouldn't touch them. I'm not sure that this is what
> everyone else is agreeing to though...

Yes, I did notice that extra bit in your proposal.  However,
I think it will easily lead to unwanted behavior as well:

** heading
        - item 1
        - item 2
        - item 3

will get you:

** heading
    - item 1
      - item 2
        - item 3

after doing the TAB dance.

- Carsten

Re: an annoying indentation

[William Henney]

On 6/15/07, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
> Yes, I did notice that extra bit in your proposal.  However,
> I think it will easily lead to unwanted behavior as well:
>
> ** heading
>         - item 1
>         - item 2
>         - item 3
>
> will get you:
>
> ** heading
>     - item 1
>       - item 2
>         - item 3
>

Yes, you are right. Probably best keep it as simple as possible then.

Cheers

Will

-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia