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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1623671530; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=4uBcjr7RlB/xPCVDjx1x1tBnUEugV1cfyEP8XmkPAOY=; b=As1h2/IwWqs+odoZzsdZMgECf3dWg6F0n5XJTAMsHK7fdaslhcKYUbnFH5nNyehlH8rDXm PHmIuqJKCpayOj2akssihssmhmrmjwcu0Tei1jt3vCvMpIF5+JjNHh7j7cpZ08X0R6rwTh nJzsc7C3h2ozMOefXCbLajptZAyNQt7lriBqmfjrrBnPvP9ikER43O4vws6GNOfdmCLpbO +BVFGts0As3r84kjUNMc+50sT8laz8ges7Qeh610T36VM+6X84SfTfgJolOlSKj31vyG7B peJRb1+6BTvTCPLnA/qBvPGyqPGwUr08oZiykzaMFweHypFTYw+8CV/7nfvwYQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1623671530; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VL9uBMz9awdLNz3tYZSKUHVtA716qoF6wvkO2+kvEEk3uR5jg6DD99mtwRh5LxNbIJP8jB F4cJjxPEpyvsqUNz1/s2NFuX5kVg5kGJR6bEROVXxwgeiFMu/D9gRlRSWzzUfEDtfNTTKL hQyzoNTzx4x6j0zFVKASuRZjUcjM36wCdrUn5EKDtqTdKXwKU7Qr0lyOQYt9Me/rTa3X8L rPwCXsGKXsW4O8fbzzJpSn7qpejkXCNNh/HiJRQ9pBEdMm5ow49BOlr+pYtbPFaCL22Obc QEc/X1mEyPSm1pQWx66dHGT75rYe85DDrCzWhm0YecSdWzFamoEDa/7N91jQcg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=DVvoQIeQ; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=w9SxAuVi; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.12 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=DVvoQIeQ; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=w9SxAuVi; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: BEB751FD48 X-Spam-Score: -3.12 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: HOWAcQ3O8eXW Just one addition: I think it will be perfectly fine if the current suggestion is added now. I guess adding additional features later will be always possible, right? I don't know what the plans are for the next org release, and I don't want this question here to stand in the way. Denis Am 14.06.2021 um 13:45 schrieb Denis Maier: > Below a few examples of what I mean. > > WDYT? Am I missing something? > > Denis > =========================================================== > #+cite_export: csl > #+cite_export: csl > "C:/Users/denis/Zotero/styles/chicago-note-bibliography.csl" > #+bibliography: test.bib > > * Original source > > "A quotation ending with a period." > > "A quotation ending without punctuation" > > * Author-date style input (= semantically non-strict input) > > "A quotation ending with a period" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole]. > > ** author-date output with language: en-us > Expected: "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971). > Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971). > > Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971). > Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971). > > => ok > > ** author-date output with language: de > Expected: "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971). > Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971). > > Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971). > Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971). > > => ok > > ** note style output with language: en-us > Expected: "A quotation ending with a period."[1] > Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period."[1] > > Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation."[1] > Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation."[1] > > => ok > > ** note style output with language: en-gb or de > Expected: "A quotation ending with a period."[1] > Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period".[1] > > Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation".[1] > Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation".[1] > > => Here, we cannot distinguish between the two cases as we don't know > whether punctuation appears in the original source. > > * Note style input (=semantically strict input) > > "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole] > > "A quotation ending without punctuation". [cite: @hoel-71-whole] > > As the input preserves the location of punctuation in the original > material, I'd say it should be much easier to deal with this. We don't > have to add information which isn't in the input, but rather we'll just > have to move any punctuation to after the citation object. Maybe I'm > missing something, but to me this looks like a much simpler operation > than going in the opposite direction. > > Maybe we should stop talking about author date vs note style input, but > rather about strict vs. non-strict input. And, I think that's the whole > issue: going from strict to non-strict is easy while the other way is > more complicated; at least, it would require some more efforts to > support the last case (going from non-strict input to note style output > with a language that requires strict output. > ========================================================================= > > Am 14.06.2021 um 00:47 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: >> I'll let you two sort it out; I don't have a position. >> >> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:23 PM Denis Maier > > wrote: >> >> >>> Bruce D'Arcus > hat >>> am 14.06.2021 00:04 geschrieben: >>> >>> >>> Nicolas explained the reverse is out of scope, >> IIRC, it was out of scope ATM. >>> and gave a reasonable explanation why (because much harder to >>> reconstruct missing information IIRC). >> That's where I disagree. I think the opposite is true. >> >>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:54 PM Denis Maier >> > wrote: >>> >>> Am 12.06.2021 um 11:39 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou: >>> > Hello, >>> > >>> > Denis Maier >> > writes: >>> > >>> >> Yes, good this is coming. >>> > >>> > As a step forward, I rebased wip-cite-new branch with more >>> support for >>> > note numbers handling. >>> > >>> > I added three customizable variables: >>> > >>> > - org-cite-adjust-note-numbers, which simply allows the >>> user to toggle >>> >    punctuation and note number moving (on by default). >>> > >>> > - org-cite-note-rules, which defines what rules to apply >>> according to >>> >    locale, expressed as a language tag, as in RFC 4646. >>> > >>> > - org-cite-punctuation-marks, which lists strings >>> recognized as >>> >    punctuation in the process. >>> > >>> > `csl' and `basic' processors now both make use of this. >>> > >>> > I'd appreciate some feedback, in particular about the >>> docstrings of the >>> > variables above. I focused on the "note numbers" topic >>> instead of >>> > "punctuation" since I found the latter too generic. >>> > >>> > Also, there are some points that may need to be discussed: >>> > >>> > - I'm not sure about the `org-cite-punctuation-marks' >>> variable being >>> >    global, i.e., not locale-specific. >>> > >>> > - There is no support for this in LaTeX-derived back-ends, >>> because >>> >    I don't know when a citation is going to become a >>> footnote. As >>> >    a reminder, there is no "\footcite" command in >>> `biblatex' processor. >>> >    OTOH, users might prefer using a more advanced >>> mechanism, e.g., >>> >    csquotes. >>> > >>> > - It doesn't do anything special in quote blocks, because >>> I'm still not >>> >    sure there is something to do. AFAIU, special casing >>> there only >>> >    applies to author-date location, which out of the scope >>> of this code. >>> > >>> > WDYT? >>> >>> Ok, I've managed to test this a bit, and I think this looks >>> pretty good >>> so far. >>> >>> The only question I'd still have is if this could somehow >>> also cover the >>> reverse situation (going from a note style to author-date). >>> I've noticed >>> that simply adding a new language rule doesn't work >>> anymore---as opposed >>> to my initial tests with earlier iterations of that >>> mechanism. Seems >>> like this mechanism is now only triggered when using a note >>> based style. >>> >>> Best, >>> Denis >>> >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> >