From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id cDacNdT0uWIVUgEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:20:04 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id gLGONdT0uWL8OAAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:20:04 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 583B92D40D for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 20:20:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44738 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5tL7-00037R-V9 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:20:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5puO-0006Sk-7Z for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 10:40:13 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]:33660) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5puM-00046s-Fk for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 10:40:11 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id n10so8403750plp.0 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 07:40:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:date:to:cc :subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=mBvm6xXWUwkhADoHYslwYTMeZfy5bakpMOOQZM1hXJw=; b=tbGtBG6eXZP0o4DdMbMQSrferacumO+aDMEkbzcXsM1KCS8oEya71UYpJfNGBzhB0l LXbE3uVnT048e3hWttCtFkZ/eS8VfO+VeAOg/2bkB4CqEHMFKtiQQ0f3LiTbMMCJMV90 h+tRP1pyxVQbHVY9Jq1b5XEELhencp6IpAOGNTwWQREoVrMklDh+r6ngVH32NAe9bz2r DLHI0MqFdPNxKNt4RT/u9AkyAPZEfmfe485AEtrbK40ZLF4Ra1JLeVuTLCJu/BvsOqiH Un8DiiQjR7sS906FagKt0A4MIwpIQnX5bDH62/InFe7vQH1jFSkyQqgcTSAhC02NNYMJ rVvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:date:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references; bh=mBvm6xXWUwkhADoHYslwYTMeZfy5bakpMOOQZM1hXJw=; b=m0xQNmbiFjuDX77/OuTFUtUj55ruQMh+SIYCxjElxaMRWMG4M6hJ9Q3Mw3zbzfGZ9t NFPOln+fJY40nPYxbSK3plLFNtJamqOwSC3uHZlaIEu52/5esatmXNFyamBzkr/GbS2L /VVjfSyb+zJRV/ZlIm1o3pFXldYk7JPrjRl0anKLBZL/0te0u7R2nIVf9Te6nwNRHHrb VBrnkyGl6IYciXMp2Yj6L6o1WavM2dv7UnWckRiTDUSNtBVbYKIFRla+U5fWWiVfcaTQ 01/lsMJsaNt4I3eGn+DGiP5/hTyW/UZz2GX3Qy5MfLS+OLgVoA8cuqvpqLJ4b0fjSFFE HmuA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9MI5x2w4xvqjCYxZ+mLNwyeAyL1zZgQnskv6RS9cW8XM6u1LBD vENPru1EHV7g6dxpRoQztxl2oFXm5T2dqI/p X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1vHsMS3lYDSjG9x+QlAyPt+yZdNc6bZH3wdFGiWrOVtmeIV7WIbzRq9F5qzdtgfHsl8fuebCg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6901:b0:168:9bb4:7adb with SMTP id j1-20020a170902690100b001689bb47adbmr15181783plk.147.1656340807848; Mon, 27 Jun 2022 07:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from raman9 (c-24-4-174-65.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.4.174.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c9-20020a170902c2c900b00163ffbc4f74sm7329231pla.49.2022.06.27.07.40.06 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Jun 2022 07:40:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "T.V Raman" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <25273.49476.833965.837697@google.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 07:40:04 -0700 To: yantar92@gmail.com Cc: maciaschain@posteo.net, raman@google.com, theophilusx@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Org mode export accessibility In-Reply-To: <878rpj3dbq.fsf@localhost> References: <87a6b8pbhg.fsf@posteo.net> <875ykwvmz7.fsf@posteo.net> <871qvioquw.fsf@gmail.com> <87czew3w5l.fsf@localhost> <87v8sn3obd.fsf@gmail.com> <87czevr9cn.fsf@posteo.net> <878rpj3dbq.fsf@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 8.1.1 under 29.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::629; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pl1-x629.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 14:11:40 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1656354004; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=mBvm6xXWUwkhADoHYslwYTMeZfy5bakpMOOQZM1hXJw=; b=swsOERC2J6nsRqeVVPm4KHEvH5K73QYxJyfO2J8XhcWbY1Aa2dV4PnJ9rhr/4pIN5mrbw4 SMYPDZOLXcw+vErBaJkSMr4AIH8ECdiq8xAEAmwi2mkNV7bREZZn+47NkQ3n3lQK8oIZSu pVMqNc4/dbCkdFqrBSaHkqvjK4abGwER06uh2Jo46TmjGV2z234YtuRyy7MVEAkL6kH0Zb havWbRq+xpp7pgmVh/1PUaqEealdWj1gM6Tpt++PvIzt6qseIKo5WpBUb7qJJ5r4UCCu+a i5vvhwxEqPSl/nGBfrxhaI0V4Pj11dPi/8mTr2JMcavVpUaaP3gdz0wAiA8t0g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1656354004; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=EznWOxUEOpK9LmKpXABsSyidan/bITmdHWiCYAWsRdk3GnVHRXRxGw7rIZSYcpfYcD6kMY HqYqYgIXaCEqGGMAVRi6vLvebSGDrFQvuy0dGzNMb/NumQhkV2iv52ECpagS6TRXJ2oCRr ChyXpEfajHow57iuh5wLrkcoNti675BaRuvliNgCF4srKIeJxNvngiPEYcSFg4oE6HyC9u hajpuT3OS1ZwdFQ0gLyrMlBg88WwHGPRmPukMocouaSmnxS/K0Ltc2Js93KfDpbEiMSsLF OH53sLY+lz9QXwQK2Tnyx6t9PcRbT3klxUbhZGKg7W2wzOOOhzD9ur0V5D5whA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=tbGtBG6e; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.90 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=tbGtBG6e; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 583B92D40D X-Spam-Score: -2.90 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: bT6uDXQFmeFT Thanks for looping me in. I'm not subscribed to emacs-orgmode --- so feel free to forward if you find the thoughts below materially useful. As a long-term org-mode user --- and an even longer term TeX user: here are some thoughts: 1. Accessibility as word used in isolation has now become mostly meaningless, to be concrete one has to ask "Accessibility to whom"=3F= =20 2. So in the following, everything I say is with respect to users with visual impairments. 3. It's incorrect to define "Accessibility" in terms of a specific user access tool or technology -- that usage is marketing jargon for a specific Access Solution like a screenreader --- so I refrain = in general from defining this in terms of Screenreaders. With those meta-thoughts out of the way: A: Org-generated documents are mostly well-structured documents, and not in general a user-interface e.g. (WebApp); so with regard to expor= t -- either HTML or LaTeX/PDF --- ARIA is mostly irrelevant. B: The LaTeX->PDF pipeline *can* produce tagged PDF with respect to document structure eg. Sectioning, but only if you use pdflatex or pdftex i.e. LaTeX/Tex->dvi->[ps]->pdf is lossy with respect to structure present in the markup; this is a short-coming of DVI which predates the thought of document structure making it through to the output. C: pdftex and pdflatex were built in the late 90's by a student in Prague (Hanu Than=3F from memory) --- only reason I know this is that I= got Adobe to fund that project when at Adobe in the 90's. It's a very good piece of work that essentially uses PDF directly as the "Device Independent" format rather than the original dvi. DVI as designed in the 70's was device-independent for the time, ie it did not hardwire printer controls and could be mapped to various print mechanisms. For the 90s, by which time Document Structure meant a lot more than being some version of inkjet printer driver independent, the afore mentioned project used PDF as the Device-Independent format --- and leveraged the Tagged PDF bits from PDF 1.4 to achieve the result. D: All that said, it is likely still easier to go from org->HTML directly and produce content that is easier to machine-process --- rather than go through one more level of indirection via LaTeX and PDF; however there may well be additional constraints in a publication workflow, e.g. publisher wants to only publish final-form -- and yes, in this case, HTML and PDF are both final-form. E: Finally, note that in (D) I said "machine processable" not "Accessible"; machine-processable is a pre-requisite to "repurpose " what you publish, and making that result usable by different user communities is a direct consequence of suche machine-processability. Hope this helps. --=20 --Raman=20 Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =E2=99=89 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =F0=9F=A6=AE -- Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) ♉ Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 🦮