custom IDs not exported

custom IDs not exported

[Daniel Clemente]

  Commit 438536f6157794101ce0957e39cad6bf70580751 („Change underscores to hyphens in section labels“) broke the export of CUSTOM_IDs.

  Take for instance this file:

-----------------------
#+TITLE: Cosas por hacer

* Programas
  :PROPERTIES:
  :CUSTOM_ID: programas
  :END:

** emacs
   :PROPERTIES:
   :CUSTOM_ID: emacs
   :END:
Editor de textos

------------------------


  When exporting (C-c C-e H) you get this table of contents:

------------------------
<div id="text-table-of-contents">
<ul>
<li><a href="#programas">1 Programas </a>
<ul>
<li><a href="#sec-1_1">1.1 emacs </a></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>
</div>

-------------------------

  The first one is correct because it is first-level. All non-first-level get #sec-NUMBERS instead of the custom ID.

  Not only the table of contents; the header's ID is also wrong:
<h3 id="sec-1_1"><a name="sec-1-1" id="sec-1-1"></a><span class="section-number-3">1.1</span> emacs </h3>


  Tested with current org-mode. 


  Greetings,
Daniel

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Daniel Clemente <n142857@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
>   Commit 438536f6157794101ce0957e39cad6bf70580751 (=E2=80=9EChange undersco=
> res to hyphens in section labels=E2=80=9C) broke the export of CUSTOM_IDs.
> 
>   Take for instance this file:
> 
> -----------------------
> #+TITLE: Cosas por hacer
> 
> * Programas
>   :PROPERTIES:
>   :CUSTOM_ID: programas
>   :END:
> 
> ** emacs
>    :PROPERTIES:
>    :CUSTOM_ID: emacs
>    :END:
> Editor de textos
> 
> ------------------------
> 
> 
>   When exporting (C-c C-e H) you get this table of contents:
> 
> ------------------------
> <div id=3D"text-table-of-contents">
> <ul>
> <li><a href=3D"#programas">1 Programas </a>
> <ul>
> <li><a href=3D"#sec-1_1">1.1 emacs </a></li>
> </ul>
> </li>
> </ul>
> </div>
> 
> -------------------------
> 
>   The first one is correct because it is first-level. All non-first-level g=
> et #sec-NUMBERS instead of the custom ID.
> 
>   Not only the table of contents; the header's ID is also wrong:
> <h3 id=3D"sec-1_1"><a name=3D"sec-1-1" id=3D"sec-1-1"></a><span class=3D"se=
> ction-number-3">1.1</span> emacs </h3>
> 
> 
>   Tested with current org-mode.=20
> 

I was afraid that other exporters might break because of this. Apologies
for the inconvenience. And, btw, thanks for the test case.

I have a minimal patch that I think fixes this problem, but there are
other underscores used in various places in org-html.el so there might
be additional problems. I'd appreciate it if you (and/or others) test it
and report not only on this problem but on any other problems you find.

Thanks,
Nick

diff --git a/lisp/org-html.el b/lisp/org-html.el
index afc6a77..b5d371f 100644
--- a/lisp/org-html.el
+++ b/lisp/org-html.el
@@ -1395,7 +1395,7 @@ lang=\"%s\" xml:lang=\"%s\">
 					   (setq txt (replace-match "" t t txt)))
 					 (setq href
 					       (replace-regexp-in-string
-						"\\." "_" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
+						"\\." "-" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
 					 (setq href (org-solidify-link-text (or (cdr (assoc href org-export-preferred-target-alist)) href)))
 					 (push
 					  (format
@@ -2412,7 +2412,7 @@ When TITLE is nil, just close all open levels."
 		(insert "<ul>\n<li>" title "<br/>\n"))))
 	(aset org-levels-open (1- level) t)
 	(setq snumber (org-section-number level)
-	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "_" snumber))
+	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "-" snumber))
 	(setq level (+ level org-export-html-toplevel-hlevel -1))
 	(if (and num (not body-only))
 	    (setq title (concat

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Daniel Clemente]

  With your patch I could export correctly to HTML a big collection of data, with the same results as before (except for the changed _ to -, of course). Links work.

  Thanks,
Daniel

El Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:12:26 -0400 Nick Dokos va escriure:
> 
> I was afraid that other exporters might break because of this. Apologies
> for the inconvenience. And, btw, thanks for the test case.
> 
> I have a minimal patch that I think fixes this problem, but there are
> other underscores used in various places in org-html.el so there might
> be additional problems. I'd appreciate it if you (and/or others) test it
> and report not only on this problem but on any other problems you find.
> 
> Thanks,
> Nick
> 
> diff --git a/lisp/org-html.el b/lisp/org-html.el
> index afc6a77..b5d371f 100644
> --- a/lisp/org-html.el
> +++ b/lisp/org-html.el
> @@ -1395,7 +1395,7 @@ lang=\"%s\" xml:lang=\"%s\">
>  					   (setq txt (replace-match "" t t txt)))
>  					 (setq href
>  					       (replace-regexp-in-string
> -						"\\." "_" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
> +						"\\." "-" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
>  					 (setq href (org-solidify-link-text (or (cdr (assoc href org-export-preferred-target-alist)) href)))
>  					 (push
>  					  (format
> @@ -2412,7 +2412,7 @@ When TITLE is nil, just close all open levels."
>  		(insert "<ul>\n<li>" title "<br/>\n"))))
>  	(aset org-levels-open (1- level) t)
>  	(setq snumber (org-section-number level)
> -	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "_" snumber))
> +	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "-" snumber))
>  	(setq level (+ level org-export-html-toplevel-hlevel -1))
>  	(if (and num (not body-only))
>  	    (setq title (concat
> 

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Daniel Clemente <n142857@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
>   With your patch I could export correctly to HTML a big collection of
>   data, with the same results as before (except for the changed _ to
>   -, of course). Links work.
> 

Great! I really appreciate the extensive testing.

Thanks,
Nick

>   Thanks,
> Daniel
> 
> El Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:12:26 -0400 Nick Dokos va escriure:
> > 
> > I was afraid that other exporters might break because of this. Apologies
> > for the inconvenience. And, btw, thanks for the test case.
> > 
> > I have a minimal patch that I think fixes this problem, but there are
> > other underscores used in various places in org-html.el so there might
> > be additional problems. I'd appreciate it if you (and/or others) test it
> > and report not only on this problem but on any other problems you find.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Nick
> > 
> > diff --git a/lisp/org-html.el b/lisp/org-html.el
> > index afc6a77..b5d371f 100644
> > --- a/lisp/org-html.el
> > +++ b/lisp/org-html.el
> > @@ -1395,7 +1395,7 @@ lang=\"%s\" xml:lang=\"%s\">
> >  					   (setq txt (replace-match "" t t txt)))
> >  					 (setq href
> >  					       (replace-regexp-in-string
> > -						"\\." "_" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
> > +						"\\." "-" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
> >  					 (setq href (org-solidify-link-text (or (cdr (assoc href org-export-preferred-target-alist)) href)))
> >  					 (push
> >  					  (format
> > @@ -2412,7 +2412,7 @@ When TITLE is nil, just close all open levels."
> >  		(insert "<ul>\n<li>" title "<br/>\n"))))
> >  	(aset org-levels-open (1- level) t)
> >  	(setq snumber (org-section-number level)
> > -	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "_" snumber))
> > +	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "-" snumber))
> >  	(setq level (+ level org-export-html-toplevel-hlevel -1))
> >  	(if (and num (not body-only))
> >  	    (setq title (concat
> > 
> 

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Daniel Clemente]

Hi,

Could you check this patch in?

Thanks


El Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:12:26 -0400 Nick Dokos va escriure:
> 
> I have a minimal patch that I think fixes this problem, but there are
> other underscores used in various places in org-html.el so there might
> be additional problems. I'd appreciate it if you (and/or others) test it
> and report not only on this problem but on any other problems you find.
> 
> Thanks,
> Nick
> 
> diff --git a/lisp/org-html.el b/lisp/org-html.el
> index afc6a77..b5d371f 100644
> --- a/lisp/org-html.el
> +++ b/lisp/org-html.el
> @@ -1395,7 +1395,7 @@ lang=\"%s\" xml:lang=\"%s\">
>  					   (setq txt (replace-match "" t t txt)))
>  					 (setq href
>  					       (replace-regexp-in-string
> -						"\\." "_" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
> +						"\\." "-" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
>  					 (setq href (org-solidify-link-text (or (cdr (assoc href org-export-preferred-target-alist)) href)))
>  					 (push
>  					  (format
> @@ -2412,7 +2412,7 @@ When TITLE is nil, just close all open levels."
>  		(insert "<ul>\n<li>" title "<br/>\n"))))
>  	(aset org-levels-open (1- level) t)
>  	(setq snumber (org-section-number level)
> -	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "_" snumber))
> +	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "-" snumber))
>  	(setq level (+ level org-export-html-toplevel-hlevel -1))
>  	(if (and num (not body-only))
>  	    (setq title (concat
> 

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Daniel Clemente <n142857@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Could you check this patch in?
> 

It is checked in already. The commit looks like this:

,----
| commit 1891ee5aafee710315a26595385e670e1ac3771e
| Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
| Date:   Tue Jun 14 10:46:09 2011 +0200
| 
|     Fix HTML export to make CUSTOM_ID links work again
|     
|     * lisp/org-html.el (org-export-as-html):
|     (org-html-level-start): Only convert section number underscores to dashes.
`----

``git show 1891ee5aafee710315a26595385e670e1ac3771e'' will show you whether
you have it or need to pull.

Nick

> 
> 
> El Sat, 11 Jun 2011 23:12:26 -0400 Nick Dokos va escriure:
> > 
> > I have a minimal patch that I think fixes this problem, but there are
> > other underscores used in various places in org-html.el so there might
> > be additional problems. I'd appreciate it if you (and/or others) test it
> > and report not only on this problem but on any other problems you find.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Nick
> > 
> > diff --git a/lisp/org-html.el b/lisp/org-html.el
> > index afc6a77..b5d371f 100644
> > --- a/lisp/org-html.el
> > +++ b/lisp/org-html.el
> > @@ -1395,7 +1395,7 @@ lang=\"%s\" xml:lang=\"%s\">
> >  					   (setq txt (replace-match "" t t txt)))
> >  					 (setq href
> >  					       (replace-regexp-in-string
> > -						"\\." "_" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
> > +						"\\." "-" (format "sec-%s" snumber)))
> >  					 (setq href (org-solidify-link-text (or (cdr (assoc href org-export-preferred-target-alist)) href)))
> >  					 (push
> >  					  (format
> > @@ -2412,7 +2412,7 @@ When TITLE is nil, just close all open levels."
> >  		(insert "<ul>\n<li>" title "<br/>\n"))))
> >  	(aset org-levels-open (1- level) t)
> >  	(setq snumber (org-section-number level)
> > -	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "_" snumber))
> > +	      snu (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "-" snumber))
> >  	(setq level (+ level org-export-html-toplevel-hlevel -1))
> >  	(if (and num (not body-only))
> >  	    (setq title (concat
> > 
> 

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Daniel Clemente]

  The latest commit I can find after cloning git://repo.or.cz/org-mode.git to a new directory is this:

,----
| commit 90f6765cdf77c1414726d899f00c77da43f45758
| Author: Eric Schulte <schulte.eric@gmail.com>
| Date:   Mon Jun 13 14:58:56 2011 -0700
| 
|     ob-tangle: no longer inserting newlines between appended code blocks
|     
|     * lisp/ob-tangle.el (org-babel-tangle-combine-named-blocks): No longer
|       inserting newlines between appended code blocks.
`----


  So it seems there's some sort of delay with repo.or.cz




El Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:40:56 -0400 Nick Dokos va escriure:
> 
> It is checked in already. The commit looks like this:
> 
> ,----
> | commit 1891ee5aafee710315a26595385e670e1ac3771e
> | Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
> | Date:   Tue Jun 14 10:46:09 2011 +0200
> | 
> |     Fix HTML export to make CUSTOM_ID links work again
> |     
> |     * lisp/org-html.el (org-export-as-html):
> |     (org-html-level-start): Only convert section number underscores to dashes.
> `----
> 
> ``git show 1891ee5aafee710315a26595385e670e1ac3771e'' will show you whether
> you have it or need to pull.
> 
> Nick

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Daniel Clemente <n142857@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
>   The latest commit I can find after cloning git://repo.or.cz/org-mode.git to a new directory is this:
> 
> ,----
> | commit 90f6765cdf77c1414726d899f00c77da43f45758
> | Author: Eric Schulte <schulte.eric@gmail.com>
> | Date:   Mon Jun 13 14:58:56 2011 -0700
> | 
> |     ob-tangle: no longer inserting newlines between appended code blocks
> |     
> |     * lisp/ob-tangle.el (org-babel-tangle-combine-named-blocks): No longer
> |       inserting newlines between appended code blocks.
> `----
> 
> 
>   So it seems there's some sort of delay with repo.or.cz
> 

Indeed: the git repo was changed to orgmode.org back in December (?)
and repo.or.cz was left as a mirror, but apparently it has been
non compos mentis for a little while. Your best best is to go
to the horse's mouth - cd into the directory that holds the git clone
of org and

   git config remote.origin.url git://orgmode.org/org-mode.git

Then just continue as if nothing happened.

Nick

PS There was some discussion of this on the ML this morning (or last night?
   I'm losing track of time...)

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Bastien]

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> Indeed: the git repo was changed to orgmode.org back in December (?)
> and repo.or.cz was left as a mirror, but apparently it has been
> non compos mentis for a little while.

I've just checked: the git mirror at http://repo.or.cz/w/org-mode.git 
is still working fine.  Great to know users can also rely on this.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Sten Lindner]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 11:12:26PM -0400, Nick Dokos wrote:
> 
> I have a minimal patch that I think fixes this problem, but there are
> other underscores used in various places in org-html.el so there might
> be additional problems. I'd appreciate it if you (and/or others) test it
> and report not only on this problem but on any other problems you find.

I'm having the same problem when exporting to Docbook, custom IDs are
being ignored.

For example, when I export some org-mode text using C-c C-e D:

* heading1
  :PROPERTIES:
  :CUSTOM_ID: h1
  :END:

** heading2
  :PROPERTIES:
  :CUSTOM_ID: h2
  :END:

some links:
- see [[#h1][heading1]]
- see [[#h2][heading2]]

I' getting the following XML output:

<section xml:id="sec-1">
<title>heading1 </title>
<section xml:id="sec-1_1">
<title>heading2 </title>
<para>
some links:
</para>
<itemizedlist>
<listitem>
<para>see <link linkend="h1">heading1</link>
</para>
</listitem>
<listitem>
<para>see <link linkend="h2">heading2</link>
</para>
</listitem>
</itemizedlist>
</section>
</section>
</article>

I would expect to see my custom IDs "H1" and "H2" but instead get
auto-generated IDs "sec-1" and "sec-1_1".

I'm using the latest org-mode version 7.7.

best regards,
Sten

-- 
Sten Lindner

e-mail: s.lindner@stenlindner.de

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Sten Lindner <s.lindner@stenlindner.de> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 11:12:26PM -0400, Nick Dokos wrote:
> > 
> > I have a minimal patch that I think fixes this problem, but there are
> > other underscores used in various places in org-html.el so there might
> > be additional problems. I'd appreciate it if you (and/or others) test it
> > and report not only on this problem but on any other problems you find.
> 
> I'm having the same problem when exporting to Docbook, custom IDs are
> being ignored.
> 
> For example, when I export some org-mode text using C-c C-e D:
> 
> * heading1
>   :PROPERTIES:
>   :CUSTOM_ID: h1
>   :END:
> 
> ** heading2
>   :PROPERTIES:
>   :CUSTOM_ID: h2
>   :END:
> 
> some links:
> - see [[#h1][heading1]]
> - see [[#h2][heading2]]
> 
> I' getting the following XML output:
> 
> <section xml:id="sec-1">
> <title>heading1 </title>
> <section xml:id="sec-1_1">
> <title>heading2 </title>
> <para>
> some links:
> </para>
> <itemizedlist>
> <listitem>
> <para>see <link linkend="h1">heading1</link>
> </para>
> </listitem>
> <listitem>
> <para>see <link linkend="h2">heading2</link>
> </para>
> </listitem>
> </itemizedlist>
> </section>
> </section>
> </article>
> 
> I would expect to see my custom IDs "H1" and "H2" but instead get
> auto-generated IDs "sec-1" and "sec-1_1".
> 
> I'm using the latest org-mode version 7.7.
> 
> best regards,
> Sten
> 
> -- 
> Sten Lindner
> 
> e-mail: s.lindner@stenlindner.de
>


This is because org-docbook.el does not implement custom ID handling at
all. I don't know if Baoqiu Cui, the author of org-docbook.el, watches
this list any longer (I haven't seen any mail from him for some time):
if he is around, he would be the logical person to fix it.  But if you
are interested in fixing this problem, I'd be happy to provide
guidance.[fn:1]

The problem is the following code in the function
org-export-docbook-level-start in lisp/org-docbook.el:

      ...
      (setq section-number (org-section-number level))
      (insert (format "\n<section xml:id=\"%s%s\">\n<title>%s</title>"
		      org-export-docbook-section-id-prefix
		      (replace-regexp-in-string "\\." "_" section-number)
      ...

As you can see, the xml id is formed from
org-export-docbook-section-id-prefix (which has the value "sec-") and
the section-number (which is "1" for the top level heading and "1.1" for
the second level heading). We replace periods with underscores in the
section number and then construct the id as "sec-1_1". But there is no
provision anywhere for translating to custom IDs.

So one necessary change in order to conform to the changed convention is
to replace periods with hyphens in the section number. But in addition
to that, the xml id will have to be constructed differently if there is
a custom ID around.

Custom ids are passed to this function through a (dynamically scoped)
variable called org-export-preferred-target-alist which in the case
below has the value

    (("sec-1-1" . "h2") ("sec-1" . "h1"))

This variable provides the translations from the standard to the custom
IDs.

org-html.el provides a template to follow in reorganizing the above code
to do the translation. If you look at org-html-level-start [fn:2],
you'll find the following code

	(setq href (cdr (assoc (concat "sec-" snu) org-export-preferred-target-alist)))
        ...
	(setq href (org-solidify-link-text (or href (concat "sec-" snu))))
	(insert (format "\n<div id=\"outline-container-%s\" class=\"outline-%d%s\">\n<h%d id=\"%s\">%s%s</h%d>\n<div class=\"outline-text-%d\" id=\"text-%s\">\n"
			suffix level (if extra-class (concat " " extra-class) "")
			level href
			extra-targets
			title level level suffix))

In this case, snu is the section number (with periods already replaced
by hyphens).  The local variable href is used to construct the id: the
conventional section number ("sec-1-1" e.g.) is looked up in the alist
and it is either found, in which case href is set to the translation
("h2") or it is not found, in which case href is set to nil. Then the
second setq sets it to either the translated value or, if that is nil,
to the conventional value ("sec-1-1"). That is then used to fill in the
id in the html code.

With this information, do you think you could get a patch together?
Let me know if you have questions.

Nick

Footnotes:

[fn:1] For legal reasons, I cannot fix it myself.

[fn:2] As an aside, note the inconsistency in the function names. Bastien,
       is this worth fixing?

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Bastien]

Hi Nick,

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> With this information, do you think you could get a patch together?

I hope Sten will be able to provide a patch!

> Let me know if you have questions.

Thanks for the detailed analysis.

> Footnotes:
>
> [fn:1] For legal reasons, I cannot fix it myself.

Com'on Nick, you're not allowed to make patches longers than 20 lines, 
which makes it a nice challenge to fix these kind of issues in less than
20 lines :D

> [fn:2] As an aside, note the inconsistency in the function names. Bastien,
>        is this worth fixing?

It's always worth fixing such things.  Depends on how much time it costs
to the persons who undertake the fix... Patch welcome!

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:

> Hi Nick,
> 
> Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:
> 
> > With this information, do you think you could get a patch together?
> 
> I hope Sten will be able to provide a patch!
> 
> > Let me know if you have questions.
> 
> Thanks for the detailed analysis.
> 
> > Footnotes:
> >
> > [fn:1] For legal reasons, I cannot fix it myself.
> 
> Com'on Nick, you're not allowed to make patches longers than 20 lines, 
> which makes it a nice challenge to fix these kind of issues in less than
> 20 lines :D
> 

Oh, I thought I had run out on my quota: I do have a patch that I can
send in, I just don't want to cause headaches (particularly to you)
down the line. I'll add a Changelog, mark it as a TINYCHANGE and send it in -
is that OK?

I
> > [fn:2] As an aside, note the inconsistency in the function names. Bastien,
> >        is this worth fixing?
> 
> It's always worth fixing such things.  Depends on how much time it costs
> to the persons who undertake the fix... Patch welcome!
> 

OK, I'll take a look at all the exporters and go with the more popular format.

Nick

> Thanks,
> 
> -- 
>  Bastien
> 

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Jambunathan K]

> Oh, I thought I had run out on my quota: I do have a patch that I can
> send in, I just don't want to cause headaches (particularly to you)
> down the line. I'll add a Changelog, mark it as a TINYCHANGE and send it in -
> is that OK?

AFAIK, there is fair amount of audit of ChangeLogs that is done when
anything - that includes Org - goes in to Emacs proper.

Also considering FSF gives primacy to copyright assignment & disclaimer
in *paper format* and the mere existence of support machinery around it
- a copyright clerk etc etc - one needs to take good amount of care to
make sure that the *sum total* (it is sum total right?) of TINYCHANGES
don't add up to no more than palmful.

If one cannot sum up the lines of changes one has submitted one should
err on the conservative side and not submit a patch.

I wouldn't record this dissent note if Org were a one-off project. It is
part of a much greater project - a project which gives primacy not to
*convenience* but to a certain *principle*.

If Nick or someone else checks in some change, someone raises a red flag
and questions the copyright (or whatver) the said code will be pulled
out from Emacs inconveniencing a whole bunch of users. More importantly
it will be shameful for Emacs project.

We may not do great deeds ourselves but we can do our bit to lend a hand
to someone that stands for something.

Jambunathan K.
-- 

Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien

I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)

I leave it up to the community on what would be the best place to "host"
this software. I am a signed contributor and all the above files have
their copyright assigned to FSF and the files are distributed under the
same license as Emacs itself. I would like to emphasize that I am the
SOLE AUTHOR of the above files. (More specifically, there is literally
none of the changes made by Lennart Borgman had made it's way in to the
final product. Though it retains some of the "influence" of his
involvement.)

At some point in time I would like to make a formal submission to GNU
ELPA to host this package as a personal initiative. Not having this
package in Orgmode core would also help me move fast in in having my
files in a distribution head.

I will happily fix any bug reports that come by way. I will be lot less
aggressive in adding features though.

I will not be making anymore commits to the Orgmode repo and I am
switching my development to a private branch.

Jambunathan K.
-- 

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Vikas Rawal]

> I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
> to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
> considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
> has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)

This comes as a surprise. Did I miss something on the list? It would
help if you would kindly explain your reason for chosing keep your
work separate from orgmode core?

There has been a lot of excitement on this list about the addition of
org-odt into orgmode. What has gone wrong?

Vikas

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Detlef Steuer]

Hi!

First of all thanks for your efforts. I just started to rely on org-odt and am a little bit puzzled by your decision.

Will you take care of org-odt working in orgmode for the foreseeable future or don`t you care about orgmode anymore? 

Just to be clear: It`s of course totally your decision, but I don`t want to be taken by surprise if I base some work on that wonderful tool.

Detlef

> 
> Bastien
> 
> I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
> to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
> considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
> has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)
> 
> I leave it up to the community on what would be the best place to "host"
> this software. I am a signed contributor and all the above files have
> their copyright assigned to FSF and the files are distributed under the
> same license as Emacs itself. I would like to emphasize that I am the
> SOLE AUTHOR of the above files. (More specifically, there is literally
> none of the changes made by Lennart Borgman had made it's way in to the
> final product. Though it retains some of the "influence" of his
> involvement.)
> 
> At some point in time I would like to make a formal submission to GNU
> ELPA to host this package as a personal initiative. Not having this
> package in Orgmode core would also help me move fast in in having my
> files in a distribution head.
> 
> I will happily fix any bug reports that come by way. I will be lot less
> aggressive in adding features though.
> 
> I will not be making anymore commits to the Orgmode repo and I am
> switching my development to a private branch.
> 
> Jambunathan K.
> -- 
> 
> 

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Sebastien Vauban]

Hi Jambunathan,

> I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
> to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
> considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
> has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)

As all, I'm puzzled by this statement, and wonder what went wrong somehow.

What you did is a really important piece of the puzzle, as it finally let us
cooperate more easily with people we can't convert as Org'ers. At least, they
won't bother us to fit their software requirement: we can work in Org up till
the very end, and then produce a final result in the expected (by others)
format.

> I leave it up to the community on what would be the best place to "host"
> this software.

For me, the answer to this was/is clear: Org-mode itself, hence the reason
why I don't understand the above.

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sebastien Vauban

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

> Hi Jambunathan,
>
>> I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
>> to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
>> considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
>> has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)
>
> As all, I'm puzzled by this statement, and wonder what went wrong
> somehow.

Without mincing words, Bastien has to learn how to respect and engage
with serious contributors. He should take time to look at the data
presented to him and put some serious effort before sending out an
email. I am willing to overlook the fact that he seriously pissed me off
with unkind words and committed a greater faux paus by inviting Lennart
Borgman in to merge discussions. I am sorry to say this - Lennart
Borgman did a half-baked work.

I have been patient and tried my best to be as co-operative as
possible. He just manages to get me on my nerves somehow. He simply
didn't have the courtesy to reply to my mails when he simply disappeared
from the list for 3 months or so. I hate to such callous attitude who
claims to be a maintainer and wants to act like a maintainer.

> What you did is a really important piece of the puzzle, as it finally
> let us cooperate more easily with people we can't convert as
> Org'ers. At least, they won't bother us to fit their software
> requirement: we can work in Org up till the very end, and then produce
> a final result in the expected (by others) format.
>
>> I leave it up to the community on what would be the best place to "host"
>> this software.
>
> For me, the answer to this was/is clear: Org-mode itself, hence the reason
> why I don't understand the above.

I have definite ideas on how the merge should proceed. He should be
willing to concede to the fact that I have a far better understanding on
what the most effective method of merge is.

Bastien has stepped in to big shoes and he has to measure up. 

> Best regards,
>   Seb

-- 

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Thomas S. Dye]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

>> Hi Jambunathan,
>>
>>> I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
>>> to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
>>> considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
>>> has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)
>>
>> As all, I'm puzzled by this statement, and wonder what went wrong
>> somehow.
>
> Without mincing words, Bastien has to learn how to respect and engage
> with serious contributors. He should take time to look at the data
> presented to him and put some serious effort before sending out an
> email. I am willing to overlook the fact that he seriously pissed me off
> with unkind words and committed a greater faux paus by inviting Lennart
> Borgman in to merge discussions. I am sorry to say this - Lennart
> Borgman did a half-baked work.
>
> I have been patient and tried my best to be as co-operative as
> possible. He just manages to get me on my nerves somehow. He simply
> didn't have the courtesy to reply to my mails when he simply disappeared
> from the list for 3 months or so. I hate to such callous attitude who
> claims to be a maintainer and wants to act like a maintainer.
>

Aloha Jambunathan K,

It is good to have you back.  The Org-mode community is poorer without
you.

Please understand that the Org-mode community is a community of
volunteers, committed to the cause of interesting and useful software.
When one of us contributes, as you have so generously, the contribution
represents commitment to that cause.

I have nothing but admiration for the contributions of Lennart Borgman
and Bastien Guerry.  I am eager to see what they will contribute
next.  I hope that you'll join me in expressing gratitude for all that they
have contributed and that, like me, you'll encourage them to contribute
as the spirit moves them.  

I don't see any other way a community of volunteers can move forward.

All the best,
Tom

>> What you did is a really important piece of the puzzle, as it finally
>> let us cooperate more easily with people we can't convert as
>> Org'ers. At least, they won't bother us to fit their software
>> requirement: we can work in Org up till the very end, and then produce
>> a final result in the expected (by others) format.
>>
>>> I leave it up to the community on what would be the best place to "host"
>>> this software.
>>
>> For me, the answer to this was/is clear: Org-mode itself, hence the reason
>> why I don't understand the above.
>
> I have definite ideas on how the merge should proceed. He should be
> willing to concede to the fact that I have a far better understanding on
> what the most effective method of merge is.
>
> Bastien has stepped in to big shoes and he has to measure up. 
>
>> Best regards,
>>   Seb

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

> I hope that you'll join me in expressing gratitude for all that they
> have contributed 

Ok. Done.

Let bygones be bygones. What is important to me is that my work be
available and used widely. All other concerns are secondary.

I am on a sabbatical from work and I will be failing myself badly if I
let my natural confrontational self to get the better of me.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Thomas S. Dye]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

>> I hope that you'll join me in expressing gratitude for all that they
>> have contributed 
>
> Ok. Done.
>
> Let bygones be bygones. What is important to me is that my work be
> available and used widely. All other concerns are secondary.
>
> I am on a sabbatical from work and I will be failing myself badly if I
> let my natural confrontational self to get the better of me.
>
> Jambunathan K.
>
Aloha Jambunathan K.,

Thank you for this.  

I appreciate the passion you bring to Org-mode development and am
pleased at the thought the Org-mode community will continue to enjoy
your efforts.

All the best,
Tom
 
-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Bastien has stepped in to big shoes and he has to measure up. 

Those shoes are so big that there is room for more than one guy.

And I'm *really* glad I can rely on people like you, Carsten, Eric,
Nicolas, David and many others to help me wear them :)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Bastien has stepped in to big shoes and he has to measure up. 
>
> Those shoes are so big that there is room for more than one guy.
>
> And I'm *really* glad I can rely on people like you, Carsten, Eric,
> Nicolas, David and many others to help me wear them :)

Remove me from the list. I am a charlatan and I don't want to even
pretend to be otherwise.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

>>> And I'm *really* glad I can rely on people like you, Carsten, Eric,
>>> Nicolas, David and many others to help me wear them :)
>>
>> Remove me from the list. I am a charlatan and I don't want to even
>> pretend to be otherwise.
>>
> Please stay on the list!  

I meant the list of people Bastien lined up not the mailing list. I am
simply overwhelmed and humbled by the enthusiasm shown for my work.

I should say your words (boxquoted here)

,----
| I think when people work really hard on these voluntary contributions
| it's not at all unusual for them to feel frustrated when the process
| doesn't move as smoothly as it could.
`----

personally made most emotional sense to me. It rightly captures what I
was trying to articulate (very poorly).

Btw, one of the reasons this list doesn't get insane is because it has
 people from "humanities" who have a natural flair for neutralizing any
 discord. The conventional stereotype of a geek as a social misfit also
 has some truth to it.

I truly appreciate your kind words. I have no doubt that they are
genuine words of love that bring LOTS OF understanding.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Matthew Sauer]

To all,

I would just like to, at this point, say that I am honored to have
read this discussion.  I was very worried that a major blowout was
going to occur but you have shown me something that I appreciate about
OSS, it not only attempts to make the world better through Freedom but
it makes us better as we work together across divides.

Hopefully I will be able to become more active, I just finished making
the web version of Practical Common Lisp into an e-book to sit on my
Nook for me to peruse and study as I continue working on some of my
DEV ideas.

Thank you to all of you and I am glad that org-odt is still here and
everyone involved is as well.

---
Matthew

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Štěpán Němec]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:46:35 +0200
Jambunathan K. wrote:

>> Hi Jambunathan,
>>
>>> I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
>>> to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
>>> considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
>>> has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)
>>
>> As all, I'm puzzled by this statement, and wonder what went wrong
>> somehow.
>
> Without mincing words, Bastien has to learn how to respect and engage
> with serious contributors. He should take time to look at the data
> presented to him and put some serious effort before sending out an
> email. I am willing to overlook the fact that he seriously pissed me off
> with unkind words and committed a greater faux paus by inviting Lennart
> Borgman in to merge discussions. I am sorry to say this - Lennart
> Borgman did a half-baked work.
>
> I have been patient and tried my best to be as co-operative as
> possible. He just manages to get me on my nerves somehow. He simply
> didn't have the courtesy to reply to my mails when he simply disappeared
> from the list for 3 months or so. I hate to such callous attitude who
> claims to be a maintainer and wants to act like a maintainer.
>
>> What you did is a really important piece of the puzzle, as it finally
>> let us cooperate more easily with people we can't convert as
>> Org'ers. At least, they won't bother us to fit their software
>> requirement: we can work in Org up till the very end, and then produce
>> a final result in the expected (by others) format.
>>
>>> I leave it up to the community on what would be the best place to "host"
>>> this software.
>>
>> For me, the answer to this was/is clear: Org-mode itself, hence the reason
>> why I don't understand the above.
>
> I have definite ideas on how the merge should proceed. He should be
> willing to concede to the fact that I have a far better understanding on
> what the most effective method of merge is.
>
> Bastien has stepped in to big shoes and he has to measure up. 

So "frustrated" is a dirty word for you? How about "a conceited moron"?
Bastien might be an incompetent maintainer or programmer (in any case,
you seem to be the first to make such claims), but he's certainly more
than willing to deal with it. You've shown more than once here that
you're rather incompetent as a contributor and a person[1].

I find it quite surprising that people on this list, including Bastien,
are even willing to reply to the dirt you're spitting up.  

[1] Another example of the Jambunathan style:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/42544/focus=42563

-- 
Štěpán

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

Please stay away from the discussion.

> [1] Another example of the Jambunathan style:
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/42544/focus=42563

You are mixing stlye with intent. style != intent. Read that again. The
intent of hte post is to prod him to post ONLY when he can afford to
post.

I resent when someone relies on Free Software but suffixes every bug
report he files with "No I cannot add more". I can show Samuel's posts
which are detailed and which an average poster wouldn't have patience to
write. I don't want him to file detailed bug reports. He simply has to
remove his signature statement which repeatedly brings focus to what he
cannot do and not what he has already brought to the table.

When you are on internet you don't have to declare who you are or what
you are endowed with. 

My contributions are non-trivial and useful. Bastien or Thomas or even
Carsten (in the post that you point to) are taking a balanced
opinion. They are taking a position which would take the discussion
forward.

You are hell bent on sabotaging the discussion. 

ps: Please stay away from the discussion. You don't have what it takes
to generate a consensus.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

> So "frustrated" is a dirty word for you? How about "a conceited
> moron"?

Labels have no meanings. They are merely quick conveniences. (Does this
remark make me a MORE CONCEITED MORON)

> Bastien might be an incompetent maintainer or programmer (in any case,
> you seem to be the first to make such claims)

I use words judiciously. I made no mention of incompetence. I was only
listing the expectations that I have of him and where I felt he
seriously falls short.

If I say that I am a professional programmer will that make Bastien a
poor programmer. Did you ever have a course in logic?


> You've shown more than once here that you're rather incompetent as a
> contributor and a person[1].

I am a incompetent contributor to Orgmode if you measure my competence
(or incompetence thereof) based on say how many miles I can manage to
run in a marathon. You are conveniently ignoring good things that people
are saying about org-odt just because you are in ill-mood.

Advising a person to refrain from posting after bringing attention to
the fact that contrary to his intention he seriously falls short is
according to me not unkind. If you force a sick person to sit when it
could harm him are you helping him or you harming him.

I don't want to confront you with a Zen koan but your reasoning is
seriously flawed and your intent is malicious.

Btw, if I am dog will org-odt be less useful?

> I find it quite surprising that people on this list, including Bastien,
> are even willing to reply to the dirt you're spitting up.  
>
> [1] Another example of the Jambunathan style:
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/42544/focus=42563

-- 

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

We all need Zen slaps at various points in time.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZenSlap

Hope it will soften your mood.

Jambunathan K.

My apprehensions listed (Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core)

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien

(Now with courtesy copy to the list)

> Really, Jambunathan, let's get over this useless discussion.

I don't think that the discussion was intended to be useless. I have
raised or recorded numerous issues that I was apprehensive about.

> As someone said, we both are doing our best, we should not let
> frustration (mine too!) guide our reactions.

My only goal is this - I would like to have all three files in the core
with minimum of effort expended by all parties (including you and
volunteer testers).

> My point now is: how can we make it easy for *other people* to help us
> in merging org-html.el and org-xhtml.el (assuming that you agree
> having org-xhtml.el in core is not a good idea, tell me otherwise)?

My point is having org-xhtml.el is a good idea. It takes zero effort to
merge it. We only need some serious testers to give an independent
assessment that org-xhtml.el is good to go.

All checkins to org-html.el should merge back to org-lparse.el and/or
org-odt.el and org-html.el. It is the responsibility of the whoever
makes the commit to that file. (There has been checkin to org-html.el
yesterday) Anyone should think twice before making widestpread changes
to org-html.el. 

It is difficult for me to work when the ground beneath me is
shifting. As a maintainer, it is your responsibility to make sure that
you don't do it yourself and nobody else does it. I have said it twice
already.

As I said, I will open a new thread with my merge proposals.

> I think I've perhaps put too much pressure on you by implicitly
> expecting that *you* would do this merge -- but this can be a
> task for several people.  

Most people who have participated on this thread are onlookers (in a
non-derogatory sense) and none of them have committed upfront so much as
10 month of effort into sole purpose improving something while also
living with uncertainty of whether their efforts will make it's way back
in to the core.

My situation is akin to a first-time would-be-mother who has confused
sense of high hope and worst fears. It is a daunting feeling. I am sure
there are enough fathers (if no mothers) in this list.

I will tell Nick Dokos only this. Whether a person is civil or uncivil
shouldn't really matter. Etiquette matters but doesn't matter so much as
understanding. IMHO, everyone should make sincere effort to cut through
and look in to a person's innermost fears, concerns and apprehensions.
If this doesn't happen the person has failed in a moral sense.

I fear that 

1. I will end up doing too much work.
2. Maintainers have not invested or unwilling/unable to expend
   sufficient time to assess the changes in org-lparse.el and
   org-xhtml.el. This fuels the fear because it is easy to discard
   something than to assess something and embrace it.
3. I will end up just walking away being annoyed throwing everything
   that I have put my heart in to. I have a life-long record of doing
   this.
4. People will move on to other things and start talking about
   the next awesone way to improve in Orgmode.

I need an assurance on 2. I want a freeze on org-html.el going forward.

Whatever happens the last thing that I want is an abandonware. There
lies my bottomline.

Jambunathan K.

Re: My apprehensions listed (Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core)

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien

> All checkins to org-html.el should merge back to org-lparse.el and/or
> org-odt.el and org-html.el. It is the responsibility of the whoever
> makes the commit to that file. (There has been checkin to org-html.el
> yesterday) Anyone should think twice before making widestpread changes
> to org-html.el. 
>
> It is difficult for me to work when the ground beneath me is
> shifting. As a maintainer, it is your responsibility to make sure that
> you don't do it yourself and nobody else does it. I have said it twice
> already.

I am re-sending this for emphasis. I am not convinced that you have paid
heed to what I have been trying to say (because there had been a checkin
yesterday)

This is what I expressed sometime back.

,---- See http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-07/msg01294.html
| > ps: I would desire that any changes to org-html.el also need to be
| > ported to org-lparse.el and (or) org-xhtml.el.
`----

There is also one post roughly (I believe in February or March)

Requesting a feature freeze is a common practice. 

You either accept the freeze or reject the freeze. You don't overlook
it. Because the later leaves me confused on where you stand on the
matter.

Jambunathan K.

Re: My apprehensions listed (Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core)

[Bastien]

Hi Jambunathan,

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> You either accept the freeze or reject the freeze. You don't overlook
> it. Because the later leaves me confused on where you stand on the
> matter.

I'm not yet clear about what would be the purpose of this freeze.

If we need to freeze org-html.el in the future, in order to ease the
org-html.el/org-xhtml.el merge process, sure, we will freeze this file
for the necessary amount of time.

Let's decide this after sept. 5th, when I'm back from vacation.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: My apprehensions listed (Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core)

[Nick Dokos]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... 
> I will tell Nick Dokos only this. Whether a person is civil or uncivil
> shouldn't really matter. Etiquette matters but doesn't matter so much as
> understanding. IMHO, everyone should make sincere effort to cut through
> and look in to a person's innermost fears, concerns and apprehensions.
> 
> 

I disagree: it most definitely matters and it's not just "etiquette"
either that I'm talking about. I'm talking about respect for the other
person's point of view; in fact, something very close to what you
express in your last sentence above. If I'm ranting and raving against
you, how can I possibly look in at your "...fears, concerns and
apprehensions"?  All I'd be thinking about is how to hurt you.

And remember that I only felt compelled to say something when I saw what
I considered an ad hominem attack. Before that, even though I most
definitely did not like the tone of the discussion, there were
reasonable technical points being addressed. The trouble is that when
the tone becomes grating (as it did), it gets harder and harder to avoid
the ad hominem part and whatever discussion was going on cannot continue
being a discussion on the matters of interest. It becomes a "me against
you" and "whoever is not for me is against me" kind of thing - there are
no shades of gray, only black and white.

That's why incivility matters.

There are of course cases where no such respect should be given: if
someone is consistently making an ass of himself, then shouting him down
may be the only alternative. But I hope that we all understand that we
are not in this situation here: there has been frustration (on both
sides), some of it legitimate, some of it perhaps not.  But I think that
both Bastien and you know deep down that you both care very much for
orgmode (that's why we are *all* here), so it behooves you (both of you)
to find a way forward.

> If this doesn't happen the person has failed in a moral sense.

[I don't understand what you mean here: which person has failed?
The same person whose fears, concerns and apprehensions have not
been understood? Or the "other"? ]

In any case, I have said more than I wanted to say on the matter at
hand, so I'll shut up for now and hope that things proceed in a more
constructive direction in the future.

Nick

Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Nick Dokos]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> > So I tried
> >
> > (add-hook 'org-export-preprocess-hook (function org-export-blocks-preprocess))
> >
> > and I get the comment in the HTML output.
> 
> Is it valid a valid xhtml?
> 

I have no idea: I was mainly interested in how to make org-exp-blocks to
work (for some value of "work") and although I looked at the HTML, I didn't
check it.

> M-x nxml-mode 
> C-c C-n (assumming rng validation is on)
> 
> I find that it suffers from the same problem that cropped up wrt special
> blocks. See this thread
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-10/msg00046.html
> 
> I think the comment blocks are better handled as special blocks instead
> of org-exp-blocks.
> 
That may very well be true.

> ps: I think number of blocks and hooks in Org reflect number of people
> that worked on it :-)
> -- 
> 

Well, I don't mind a plethora of hooks: they enable things that wouldn't
be possible otherwise (and they are even documented and easily findable
because of uniform naming: either the M-x org--hook trick which works
because of the uniform naming [fn:1] or the Worg (?)  page that Carsten
pointed to some time ago[fn:2]).

As for org-exp-blocks, two out of the three areas of its application, as
discussed in the commentary, are deprecated: only comment remains. But
contrary to your (tongue-in-cheek) remark, Eric Schulte seems to be
single-handedly responsible for all of the block stuff :-)

Nick

Footnotes:

[fn:1] Note to future maintainers: don't ever name a hook anything other than
org-foo-bar-hook or else :-)

[fn:2] I prefer the first to the second because I can do it right in emacs: no
need to go look up URLs and use inferior tools.

Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Jambunathan K]

>> I think the comment blocks are better handled as special blocks instead
>> of org-exp-blocks.

> That may very well be true.

If only -

,---- From org-export-preprocess-string
|       ;; Call the hook
|       (run-hooks 'org-export-preprocess-hook)
| 
|       ;; Remove comment environment and comment subtrees
|       (org-export-remove-comment-blocks-and-subtrees)
| 
|       ;; Blockquotes, verse, and center
|       (org-export-mark-blockquote-verse-center)
|       (run-hooks 'org-export-preprocess-after-blockquote-hook)
`----

Before it hits the blockquote hook the comment block gets removed. Now
there is a reason why the hook is hooking up to
org-export-preprocess-hook. 

While complaining of plethora of hooks, I was mainly complaining from
this standpoint. This example also illustrates my frustration as an
implementer well. Apart from other things, there is this - Oh! yet
another hook that I need to take care of and cater to in org-odt.el.

Also software behaviour is counter-intuitive. This prevents one from
 asserting a mental model with any confidence without diving in to the
 code.

>> ps: I think number of blocks and hooks in Org reflect number of people
>> that worked on it :-)
>> -- 
>> 
>
> Well, I don't mind a plethora of hooks: they enable things that wouldn't
> be possible otherwise (and they are even documented and easily findable
> because of uniform naming: either the M-x org--hook trick which works
> because of the uniform naming [fn:1] or the Worg (?)  page that Carsten
> pointed to some time ago[fn:2]).

org-exp.el is a sequential assembly line. If one rearranges logic in it
even a bit - with no regard to the hook boundaries for example - the
whole export process goes for a toss. And when you name a hook
afterblockquote hook you can't move it before the blockquote can you?

> As for org-exp-blocks, two out of the three areas of its application, as
> discussed in the commentary, are deprecated: only comment remains. But
> contrary to your (tongue-in-cheek) remark, Eric Schulte seems to be
> single-handedly responsible for all of the block stuff :-)

I do see some aspects of current day babel in the deprecated blocks.

May be Carsten and various users from the distant past had a hand in
various "standard but useful" hooks like verse, quote, center, comments
etc.

> Nick
>
> Footnotes:
>
> [fn:1] Note to future maintainers: don't ever name a hook anything other than
> org-foo-bar-hook or else :-)
>
> [fn:2] I prefer the first to the second because I can do it right in emacs: no
> need to go look up URLs and use inferior tools.
>
>

-- 

OT: collage of scripts [was: Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters]

[Nick Dokos]

[I hope you'll forgive me the off-topic ruminations]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> If you do a 
> 
> C-h C-\ RET tamil-itrans RET 
> 
> you will see a nicely aligned table which gives translation table for
> tamil characters - (OK, Tamil is the language I speak) - which look like
> 
> http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?msg=56;filename=temp.png;att=1;bug=9336
> 

Jambunathan's mention of Tamil brought to mind a picture that
I had seen long ago and found mysterious, beautiful and fascinating.
It is Fig. 40, p. 168, in Hofstadter's "Gödel, Escher, Bach": I looked
for a copy on the web, but I only found the complete book.

The picture is a collage of scripts, from the undeciphered (at least
in 1980, the time of publication) script of Easter Island to Tamil
to Assyrian cuneiform.

I have no idea what each snippet says - yet there are people around
today (and in some cases, perhaps, there *were* people some time ago,
but no longer) who can (or could) extract meaning from each of these
snippets. Conversely, there are scripts that I can extract meaning from,
that other people find mysterious. I can't help the feeling that there
is something deep going on here, I just don't know *what*!

Nick

Re: OT: collage of scripts [was: Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters]

[Jambunathan K]

> Jambunathan's mention of Tamil brought to mind a picture that
> I had seen long ago and found mysterious, beautiful and fascinating.
> It is Fig. 40, p. 168, in Hofstadter's "Gödel, Escher, Bach": I looked
> for a copy on the web, but I only found the complete book.
>
> The picture is a collage of scripts, from the undeciphered (at least
> in 1980, the time of publication) script of Easter Island to Tamil
> to Assyrian cuneiform.

Book seems like an interesting read. For me to go from frame message ->
outer message -> inner message, I think I need to read the whole book
and not just a fragment of it :-)

Just curious, is the book a standard regular or supplementary reading
for courses in US. If yes, courses here could improve a lot. Such
readings will make CS/Mathematics fun, fascinating and mysterious.

> I have no idea what each snippet says - yet there are people around
> today (and in some cases, perhaps, there *were* people some time ago,
> but no longer) who can (or could) extract meaning from each of these
> snippets. Conversely, there are scripts that I can extract meaning from,
> that other people find mysterious. I can't help the feeling that there
> is something deep going on here, I just don't know *what*!
>
> Nick
-- 

Re: OT: collage of scripts

[Thomas S. Dye]

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> [I hope you'll forgive me the off-topic ruminations]
>
> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you do a 
>> 
>> C-h C-\ RET tamil-itrans RET 
>> 
>> you will see a nicely aligned table which gives translation table for
>> tamil characters - (OK, Tamil is the language I speak) - which look like
>> 
>> http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?msg=56;filename=temp.png;att=1;bug=9336
>> 
>
> Jambunathan's mention of Tamil brought to mind a picture that
> I had seen long ago and found mysterious, beautiful and fascinating.
> It is Fig. 40, p. 168, in Hofstadter's "Gödel, Escher, Bach": I looked
> for a copy on the web, but I only found the complete book.
>
> The picture is a collage of scripts, from the undeciphered (at least
> in 1980, the time of publication) script of Easter Island to Tamil
> to Assyrian cuneiform.
>
> I have no idea what each snippet says - yet there are people around
> today (and in some cases, perhaps, there *were* people some time ago,
> but no longer) who can (or could) extract meaning from each of these
> snippets. Conversely, there are scripts that I can extract meaning from,
> that other people find mysterious. I can't help the feeling that there
> is something deep going on here, I just don't know *what*!
>
> Nick
>
>
>

Hi Nick,

A book by David Bellos, Is That a Fish in Your Ear? Translation and the
Meaning of Everything, got a good review in the NYT Book Review this
week.  I'm not sure from the review if it gets to the heart of your
rumination, but the author's proposal that translation "provides for
some community an acceptable match for an utterance made in a foreign
language" made me think of your post.

All the best,
Tom
 
-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> > Oh, I thought I had run out on my quota: I do have a patch that I can
> > send in, I just don't want to cause headaches (particularly to you)
> > down the line. I'll add a Changelog, mark it as a TINYCHANGE and send it in -
> > is that OK?
> 
> AFAIK, there is fair amount of audit of ChangeLogs that is done when
> anything - that includes Org - goes in to Emacs proper.
> 
> Also considering FSF gives primacy to copyright assignment & disclaimer
> in *paper format* and the mere existence of support machinery around it
> - a copyright clerk etc etc - one needs to take good amount of care to
> make sure that the *sum total* (it is sum total right?) of TINYCHANGES
> don't add up to no more than palmful.
> 

That's what I vaguely remembered, and that's why I thought my quota has
run out.  I think I will *not* be sending the patch after all. Sten,
are you up to doing the work?

> If one cannot sum up the lines of changes one has submitted one should
> err on the conservative side and not submit a patch.
> 
> I wouldn't record this dissent note if Org were a one-off project. It is
> part of a much greater project - a project which gives primacy not to
> *convenience* but to a certain *principle*.
> 
> If Nick or someone else checks in some change, someone raises a red flag
> and questions the copyright (or whatver) the said code will be pulled
> out from Emacs inconveniencing a whole bunch of users. More importantly
> it will be shameful for Emacs project.
> 
> We may not do great deeds ourselves but we can do our bit to lend a hand
> to someone that stands for something.
> 

Not sure I follow completely, but I will continue trying to cajole others
to provide the actual patches and limit myself to providing guidance if
necessary.

Nick

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Jambunathan K]

> Not sure I follow completely, but I will continue trying to cajole others
> to provide the actual patches and limit myself to providing guidance if
> necessary.

Thanks for *not* submitting a patch.

What I meant was - there is a process in place and Emacs project + FSF
are quite earnest as far as sticking to their own guns.

[Context Switch]
An interesting read (Euphemism for *totally* OT)

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2820986
Also google - Emacs violates GPL.

Jambunathan K.
-- 

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Sten Lindner]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 02:18:09PM -0400, Nick Dokos wrote:
> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Oh, I thought I had run out on my quota: I do have a patch that I can
> > > send in, I just don't want to cause headaches (particularly to you)
> > > down the line. I'll add a Changelog, mark it as a TINYCHANGE and send it in -
> > > is that OK?
> > 
> > AFAIK, there is fair amount of audit of ChangeLogs that is done when
> > anything - that includes Org - goes in to Emacs proper.
> > 
> > Also considering FSF gives primacy to copyright assignment & disclaimer
> > in *paper format* and the mere existence of support machinery around it
> > - a copyright clerk etc etc - one needs to take good amount of care to
> > make sure that the *sum total* (it is sum total right?) of TINYCHANGES
> > don't add up to no more than palmful.
> > 
> 
> That's what I vaguely remembered, and that's why I thought my quota has
> run out.  I think I will *not* be sending the patch after all. Sten,
> are you up to doing the work?

Yes, I'll look into it over the weekend. Unfortunately, I know next to
nothing about Lisp, so I might need some help getting this
done. But with your previous explanations it should be doable.

best regards,
Sten

-- 
Sten Lindner

e-mail: s.lindner@stenlindner.de

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Sten Lindner <s.lindner@stenlindner.de> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 03, 2011 at 02:18:09PM -0400, Nick Dokos wrote:
> > Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > > Oh, I thought I had run out on my quota: I do have a patch that I can
> > > > send in, I just don't want to cause headaches (particularly to you)
> > > > down the line. I'll add a Changelog, mark it as a TINYCHANGE and send it in -
> > > > is that OK?
> > > 
> > > AFAIK, there is fair amount of audit of ChangeLogs that is done when
> > > anything - that includes Org - goes in to Emacs proper.
> > > 
> > > Also considering FSF gives primacy to copyright assignment & disclaimer
> > > in *paper format* and the mere existence of support machinery around it
> > > - a copyright clerk etc etc - one needs to take good amount of care to
> > > make sure that the *sum total* (it is sum total right?) of TINYCHANGES
> > > don't add up to no more than palmful.
> > > 
> > 
> > That's what I vaguely remembered, and that's why I thought my quota has
> > run out.  I think I will *not* be sending the patch after all. Sten,
> > are you up to doing the work?
> 
> Yes, I'll look into it over the weekend. Unfortunately, I know next to
> nothing about Lisp, so I might need some help getting this
> done. But with your previous explanations it should be doable.
> 

OK, that's great: feel free to query the list (or contact me off list,
if you prefer) for any questions. And I'd be happy to review the patch
before you submit it.

Thanks,
Nick

Re: custom IDs not exported

[Nick Dokos]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> > Not sure I follow completely, but I will continue trying to cajole others
> > to provide the actual patches and limit myself to providing guidance if
> > necessary.
> 
> Thanks for *not* submitting a patch.
> 
> What I meant was - there is a process in place and Emacs project + FSF
> are quite earnest as far as sticking to their own guns.
> 
> [Context Switch]
> An interesting read (Euphemism for *totally* OT)
> 
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2820986
> Also google - Emacs violates GPL.
> 

Is this the cedet/semantic parser flap-a-doodle? LWN covered it some
time ago.  AFAIK, it has been resolved.

Nick

[OT] FSF, GPL, cedit case (was: custom IDs not exported)

[Reiner Steib]

On Thu, Nov 03 2011, Nick Dokos wrote:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>> [Context Switch]
>> An interesting read (Euphemism for *totally* OT)
>> 
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2820986
>> Also google - Emacs violates GPL.
>> 
>
> Is this the cedet/semantic parser flap-a-doodle? 

Yes.

> LWN covered it some time ago.  AFAIK, it has been resolved.

Yes.  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.announce/25

Note that it is not accurate to write that "Emacs violates the GPL".
The FSF didn't violate it, but "Anyone redistributing those versions
is violating the GPL, through no fault of his own."  (see
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-07/msg01155.html)

Bye, Reiner.
-- 
       ,,,
      (o o)
---ooO-(_)-Ooo---  |  PGP key available  |  http://rsteib.home.pages.de/

Re: My apprehensions listed (Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core)

[Bastien]

Hi Jambunathan,

Thanks for your reply.

I will take one week of vacation next week (till sept. 5th) and try to
tackle the various issues about org-html.el and org-xhtml.el -- I will
then make a proposal that I hope we can both agree upon.

Again, let me rephrase that I have two goals: merging the ODT exporter
into Org's core, and keeping you as a motivated contributor to Org.  So
be reassured that I will do whatever I can in order to smooth out the
way we collaborate on this.

For the record, I disagree that those who make changes to org-html.el
should also backport their changes to org-xhtml.el.  For example: Emacs
developers make changes to Org in Emacs, and it is my responsability to
backport these changes into upstream Org, not their responsability.  It
doesn't mean we are stuck in a painful process.  I'm sure we can find a
smart way of dealing with this issue.

I like the motherhood metaphor: to my hears, it underlines how *patient*
we need to be!  And focused on the baby, not on our hope and fears.

So be it :)

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Nick Dokos]

Please, all, take a step back and take a deep breath.

There are always frustrations and there are different ways of dealing
with them. But we have to keep the larger goal in mind: whether I like
or hate Bastien's maintainership or Jambunathan K.s code or email style
is *completely irrelevant*. Things are what they are: what we have to
think about is how to improve org.

In this connection, the best advice that I can offer is what your mother
told you: "if you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all."

This list has always been an island of civility and calmness in an
otherwise crazy ocean. Let us keep it that way.

Thanks,
Nick

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Vikas Rawal]

> Please, all, take a step back and take a deep breath.

+1.

Now that various people have given vent to their feelings (and I hope
others have managed to swallow what they did not like), let us just
move on. 

May I suggest: go watch a film, grab a beer, or simply sit down and
code. Do whatever it takes to cool down, and laugh at one more flame
war that we will hopefully manage to douse.

Vikas

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Allen S. Rout]

On 08/24/2011 06:55 AM, Štěpán Němec wrote:

> I find it quite surprising that people on this list, including Bastien,
> are even willing to reply to the dirt you're spitting up.


Jambunathan is abrupt and speaks without much concern for the feelings 
of the recipients of his messages.  He has great concern for the exact 
meaning of his words, and for being technically correct.   This makes 
him an extremely uncomfortable conversational partner, and an extremely 
rewarding collaborator.

I'd suggest trying to avoid emotional involvement with things that he 
says.

He's not even a patch on Xah Lee. :)

- Allen S. Rout

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Štěpán Němec]

[As most people here apparently consider Jambunathan's communication
style acceptable, there is little point for me to continue replying in
this thread, but I really couldn't resist in this case, sorry.]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:30:54 +0200
Allen S. Rout wrote:

> Jambunathan is abrupt and speaks without much concern for the feelings of the
> recipients of his messages.  He has great concern for the exact meaning of his
> words, and for being technically correct.   This makes him an extremely
> uncomfortable conversational partner, and an extremely rewarding
> collaborator.

I'm (sincerely) glad you have some positive experience to share, but
you're really being much too generous with regard to this thread.

Utterances like

"I am willing to overlook the fact that he seriously pissed me off
with unkind words and committed a greater faux paus by inviting Lennart
Borgman in to merge discussions."

or

"When I criticized him he is labelling me insulting, patronizing and
frustrated. Seriously to how low a level this person has to go."

(and many others, as well as the general "everybody except me is an
idiot" spirit permeating many of Jambunathan's e-mails)

have nothing to do with "concern for the exact meaning" of anything.
Such words are not even condescending. They're just insane and for me
personally disqualify their originator from any possible collaboration
until he comes to his senses again _precisely_ because I value not only
basic civity, but also rationality and exactness.

-- 
Štěpán

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Nick Dokos]

Štěpán Němec <stepnem@gmail.com> wrote:

> [As most people here apparently consider Jambunathan's communication
> style acceptable, there is little point for me to continue replying in
> this thread, but I really couldn't resist in this case, sorry.]
> 

That is what *you* read into it: as long as we understand that this
viewpoint is not necessarily shared by others, I don't have much problem
with you believing that. But please do not ascribe motives to others:
you just don't know what they do or do not consider acceptable.

IME, flame wars erupt and eventually die down, but not before they
have done some damage. Whatever damage has been done in this case
is done and we can't do much about it. But it behooves us (all of us)
to limit the spread.

I repeat: if you cannot stand Jambunathan K., or if Jambunathan
K. cannot stand Samuel Wales or ... cannot stand ... (fill in the
blanks), there is an easy solution: do not read the offending
messages. But in any case, do not reply in an uncivil manner and if you
cannot be civil, do not reply at all.

Nick

PS. Don't be like this guy: http://xkcd.com/386/

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

Detlef

> Will you take care of org-odt working in orgmode for the foreseeable
> future or don`t you care about orgmode anymore?

I pushed a commit just a few minutes ago. So things are back to normal.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Thomas Renkert]

> I have made a decision not to merge org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt in
> to Orgmode core. It is a very difficult decision for me to take
> considering that I had put all my heart in to it. (Btw, this decision
> has nothing to with me not having enough time at hand.)
> 
> I leave it up to the community on what would be the best place to "host"
> this software. I am a signed contributor and all the above files have
> their copyright assigned to FSF and the files are distributed under the
> same license as Emacs itself. I would like to emphasize that I am the
> SOLE AUTHOR of the above files. (More specifically, there is literally
> none of the changes made by Lennart Borgman had made it's way in to the
> final product. Though it retains some of the "influence" of his
> involvement.)
> 
> I will not be making anymore commits to the Orgmode repo and I am
> switching my development to a private branch.
> 
> Jambunathan K.


Hi Jambunathan,

this is very bad news - I was just starting to use your org-odt-module 
and I must say that I already depend on it. It is a fine piece of work!

So, like everbody else, I wonder what went wrong? Has it to do with 
the way the core development of orgmode is handled? Is there 
something that could be improved?

I personally would really like to see important contribution such 
as yours become more and more integrated into the 'standard' 
Org ditribution - and not pushed further away. 

I guess it is also natural for a project like org-mode to face
 different development-related problems as it becomes bigger 
and more people are involved. However, I am confident that there
 is a solution somewhere (maybe we can learn something from 
other larger OSS projects?). 

Could you give us some feedback from your perspective? 
What are the reasons for your decision?

Regards,
Thomas

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

> I personally would really like to see important contribution such 
> as yours become more and more integrated into the 'standard' 
> Org ditribution - and not pushed further away. 

Precisely my point. Bastien's idea of merge is to make it into a long
drawn affair. I disagree.

Jambunathan K.


-- 

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Vikas Rawal]

> Precisely my point. Bastien's idea of merge is to make it into a long
> drawn affair. I disagree.

It would help if you or Bastien could explain what is going on. As is
clear, everyone is hoping that the issues will be resolved and your
valuable contributions will remain a part of org-mode. 

It does seem that you are, for now, letting them be within org-mode
(your other mail). But it would still help if you express your
apprehensions and discuss them openly on this list.

Vikas

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

> It does seem that you are, for now, letting them be within org-mode
> (your other mail). But it would still help if you express your
> apprehensions and discuss them openly on this list.

There is another mail that is on it's way. (Replies to Sebastien Vauban
always appear longer time to appear in the list)

Let me wash all the linen in open because Bastien wanted all the
criticism to be made public. (This suggestion is against my own
experience how a criticism is perceived)

I would like to ask (again), does Bastien know the difference between
copyright and license (not in legal terms but just the dictionary
meaning of it). I doubt he knows it. This cropped up because he made the
absurd suggestion that OpenDocument Schema file (which is distributed by
OASIS) should be GPLv3. 

He is asking me to name the schema files to be 8+3 when they are already
fixed up right in contrib dir [1]. How long does it take a look at a
person to cross verify whether or not a file is renamed. 

He wants to give him the elpa tarball again and have him upload it to
Emacs bzr repo when only a few days ago I had built the tarball and
shared a pointer to it [2]. Jason Dunsmor can vouch for what I say
here. He had the audacity even to suggest that he is HELPING me
committing my changes to Bzr. It is as though getting a commit access to
Emacs elpa bzr is like getting an appointment to meet President Obama
just to exchange pleasantries.

I started my negotiation with emacs-devel when I lost trust in
Bastien. How else can you feel about a person who disappears from the
list without even returning mails. He has hijacked every single thread
in emacs-devel since his re-appearance.

Bastien could be a busy man. But not keeping track of conversation and
asking meaningless questions is not how a maintainer shows appreciation
of hard work one has done.

When I criticized him he is labelling me insulting, patronizing and
frustrated. Seriously to how low a level this person has to go.

Footnotes

[1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-06/msg00671.html
[2] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-07/msg00666.html

> Vikas
>
>

-- 

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

>> It does seem that you are, for now, letting them be within org-mode
>> (your other mail). But it would still help if you express your
>> apprehensions and discuss them openly on this list.

1. I had a test.org file that I had created for testing the
   exporter. Now this file was simply thrown away because it seemed it
   was inappropriate to him.

   Any caring maintainer would not throw away a fruits of labour without
   a moment's reflection. Even if he felt that the test.org is in the
   wrong place, he could always SAVE it in whatever suitable place he
   deems fit.

2. Look at another interaction where is showing his total lack of
   awareness of how software development happens. He ignores my
   suggestion and tops it up with a tangential reply. To add more
   amusement to the whole thing, the changes were non-backward
   compatible and broke Orgmode Homepage.

   This particular amuses me because I have taken enormous pains to
   maintain backward compatibility in org-xhtml.el changes.



,---- See http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-07/msg01294.html
| > ps: I would desire that any changes to org-html.el also need to be
| > ported to org-lparse.el and (or) org-xhtml.el.
| 
| (Can you take charge of this?)
| 
| This is the main reason why having duplicate code in this area is a
| burden.
| 
| I still think our energy will be better spent by progressively adding
| things from org-xhtml.el to org-html.el, feature by feature.  This is a
| lot of (possibly boring) work, but being lazy now will just make it even
| more difficult later.
| 
| In any case, working on porting changes from org-html.el to org-xhtml.el
| isn't the right direction.
| 
| Let's keep up the good work!
`----

3. I have a body of work queued up for review and he picks up a variable
   name and comments on it.

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-08/msg00735.html

   I am a professional programmer of 10+ years and in my experience only
   fresh college graduates pick up the way the variables are named and
   subject it to serious scrutiny.

4. Sometimes I resent when he indulgently comments on Nicolas Goazious
   commits.

5. Has anyone noticed this: He commiting a fix and reverting it or he
   immediately re-fixing a just committed stuff. No this doesn't happen
   once in a blue moon.

Nothing I list is a serious error. But put everything together, I get a
picture of a person who is holding the maintainership and falling
seriously short of the role he is expected to play.

There is a limit to person's patience. I am pouring all out because he
called me "frustrated". Honesly who in his right mind would dare call a
serious and committed contributor as "frustrated".

I hope after all these discussions he understands once and for all that
Lennart Borgman has ZERO code in all the three files org-xhtml.el,
org-lparse.el and org-odt.el.

I hope he brings some insight in to review process.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Bastien]

Hi Jambunathan,

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Nothing I list is a serious error. But put everything together, I get a
> picture of a person who is holding the maintainership and falling
> seriously short of the role he is expected to play.

If the overall Org community is sharing your view, and if someone if
willing to step up as a maintainer, I am glad to step down as the Org
maintainer.

> There is a limit to person's patience. I am pouring all out because he
> called me "frustrated". Honesly who in his right mind would dare call a
> serious and committed contributor as "frustrated".

I meant it.  The word sounds harsh and I should have taken care of
making it clear I'm not _accusing_ you or whatsoever.  The fact that
my task is so big forces me to rely on people's patience, and I fully
recognize this can create frustration of some sort -- small examples:
Michael Brand has been mentioning a possible bug with priorities and
I have not had the time to look closely into it; I've not yet replied 
to the thread about the possible APPT/EVENT feature raised by Jason
a while ago; etc.

I understand people can feel frustrated about things I don't have time
to do, and I'm (silently) thankful to them that they don't get more mad
at me.

> I hope after all these discussions he understands once and for all that
> Lennart Borgman has ZERO code in all the three files org-xhtml.el,
> org-lparse.el and org-odt.el.

Sorry, this was not clear to me, because Lennart was the original author
of org-parse.el.  But I believe you and I'm glad this is the case!

I hope we can move forward to improve Org again together.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Hi Jambunathan,
>
> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Nothing I list is a serious error. But put everything together, I get a
>> picture of a person who is holding the maintainership and falling
>> seriously short of the role he is expected to play.
>
> If the overall Org community is sharing your view, and if someone if
> willing to step up as a maintainer, I am glad to step down as the Org
> maintainer.

I have a task at hand which I am hoping to bring to fruition and it is
immaterial (in neutral sense of the word) who the maintainer is. I was
reflecting on what a maintainer's role is and what is expected of him.

There is no need for others to pitch in with their one cents and two
cents worth here and make sure that the discussions hit a bottomless
pit. Heed to your heart and stay away from responding to this.

>> I hope after all these discussions he understands once and for all that
>> Lennart Borgman has ZERO code in all the three files org-xhtml.el,
>> org-lparse.el and org-odt.el.
>
> Sorry, this was not clear to me, because Lennart was the original author
> of org-parse.el.  But I believe you and I'm glad this is the case!

README.org has this entry. Users can afford to NOT read README or
manuals. Maintainers are different beast altogether and they have higher
responsibilities. They are supposed to take full cognisance of material
presented to them.

As a maintainer you cannot afford to MISATTRIBUTE authorship.

,----
| ** Is OpenDocumentExporter part of Orgmode or Emacs?
| 
|    Not yet. I have expressed my willingness to merge this package in
|    to official Orgmode and thus to Emacs. The current maintainer of
|    Orgmode - =Bastien Guerry bzg at gnu.org= - has agreed to consider
|    the package for integration. If you are interested in having this
|    package merged with Orgmode send your requests to the maintainer.
| 
|    For the sake of record, I am the sole author of the changes
|    included in this package and I am consenting to have this work or
|    derivative works make it's way into Emacs proper. My FSF copyright
|    assignment number is #618390.
`----

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

> I understand people can feel frustrated about things I don't have time
> to do, and I'm (silently) thankful to them that they don't get more
> mad at me.

People wouldn't feel frustrated about things you don't have time to do
but they will definitely get frustrated with things that you don't do
but have implicitly or explicitly committed yourself to do.

Re-read the sentence again. The difference is subtle.

For example, users will get frustrated with me if I don't fix bugs in
the odt exporter or take efforts to answer their questions.

Jambunathan K.

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Christian Moe]

Hi all,

I probably shouldn't butt into this, and I understand the technical 
issues too poorly to offer suggestions on merging. But as a grateful 
user, and and a semi-active participant on this list, I'd like to 
voice three concerns.

1. Org-mode maintained by someone able and happy to do it.

We are fortunate that Bastien stepped up to take over from Carsten as 
maintainer. Serving the Org-mode community as maintainer on a 
voluntary basis is a major personal commitment, and requires community 
support, including emotional backing and /helpful/ feedback. 
Jambunathan, please keep criticism of how Bastien has handled your 
work constructive and to the point.

2. Jambunathan's excellent org-odt maintained as an integral part of 
Org-mode.

Org-odt opens up Org-mode as an all-round authoring environment for 
users like me who are expected to deliver their work in wp formats. 
Bastien, and other core developers who may be involved, please go an 
extra mile if necessary to make sure it will end up actively 
maintained as core Org.

3. The friendly atmosphere of this mailing list preserved.

I think Bastien's replies around noon today are exemplary in this regard.

Yours,
Christian

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Stefan Vollmar]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1684 bytes --]

Dear Christian,

many thanks for your contribution - my sentiments exactly!

Warm regards,
 Stefan

On 24.08.2011, at 15:00, Christian Moe wrote:

> I probably shouldn't butt into this, and I understand the technical issues too poorly to offer suggestions on merging. But as a grateful user, and and a semi-active participant on this list, I'd like to voice three concerns.
> 
> 1. Org-mode maintained by someone able and happy to do it.
> 
> We are fortunate that Bastien stepped up to take over from Carsten as maintainer. Serving the Org-mode community as maintainer on a voluntary basis is a major personal commitment, and requires community support, including emotional backing and /helpful/ feedback. Jambunathan, please keep criticism of how Bastien has handled your work constructive and to the point.
> 
> 2. Jambunathan's excellent org-odt maintained as an integral part of Org-mode.
> 
> Org-odt opens up Org-mode as an all-round authoring environment for users like me who are expected to deliver their work in wp formats. Bastien, and other core developers who may be involved, please go an extra mile if necessary to make sure it will end up actively maintained as core Org.
> 
> 3. The friendly atmosphere of this mailing list preserved.
> 
> I think Bastien's replies around noon today are exemplary in this regard.
> 
> Yours,
> Christian
> 

-- 
Dr. Stefan Vollmar, Dipl.-Phys.
Head of IT group
Max-Planck-Institut für neurologische Forschung
Gleuelerstr. 50, 50931 Köln, Germany
Tel.: +49-221-4726-213  FAX +49-221-4726-298
Tel.: +49-221-478-5713  Mobile: 0160-93874279
Email: vollmar@nf.mpg.de   http://www.nf.mpg.de







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Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Matt Price]

On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I probably shouldn't butt into this, and I understand the technical issues
> too poorly to offer suggestions on merging. But as a grateful user, and and
> a semi-active participant on this list, I'd like to voice three concerns.
>
> 1. Org-mode maintained by someone able and happy to do it.
>
> We are fortunate that Bastien stepped up to take over from Carsten as
> maintainer. Serving the Org-mode community as maintainer on a voluntary
> basis is a major personal commitment, and requires community support,
> including emotional backing and /helpful/ feedback. Jambunathan, please keep
> criticism of how Bastien has handled your work constructive and to the
> point.
>
> 2. Jambunathan's excellent org-odt maintained as an integral part of
> Org-mode.
>
> Org-odt opens up Org-mode as an all-round authoring environment for users
> like me who are expected to deliver their work in wp formats. Bastien, and
> other core developers who may be involved, please go an extra mile if
> necessary to make sure it will end up actively maintained as core Org.
>
> 3. The friendly atmosphere of this mailing list preserved.
>
> I think Bastien's replies around noon today are exemplary in this regard.
>
> Yours,
> Christian
>
>


just +1ing this -- I think when people work really hard on these
voluntary contributions it's not at all unusual for them to feel
frustrated when the process doesn't move as smoothly as it could.  But
I truly believe both Bastien and Jambunathan are doing the very best
they can and making fantastic contributions to the tool we all love.
And I am very thankful to people like Christian for making it a
priority to keep this list a friendly and enormously helpful resource
for developers and users both.

Matt

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Rasmus]

>> Nothing I list is a serious error. But put everything together, I get
>> a picture of a person who is holding the maintainership and falling
>> seriously short of the role he is expected to play.


> If the overall Org community is sharing your view, and if someone if
> willing to step up as a maintainer, I am glad to step down as the Org
> maintainer.

I appreciate Bastien's engagement as an Org maintainer. I can appreciate
that the learning curve for being (the Org) maintainer is steep.

Further, I echo Christian Moe: Org-odt is an important
contribution. I cannot judge whether someone has done anythin wrong,
but in any case it is `human' to make mistakes. The important thing is
to correct ones future behavior IMO (I haven't had any philosophy
classes beside `worldly' ones). From my perspective Bastien and the rest
of the Org-devs seems to live up to this.

I hope this issue can be resolved and that we can enjoy odt export in a
not to distant future without having to go through extra hoops such as
ELPA.

—Rasmus

-- 
Sent from my Emacs

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Bastien]

Hi Jambunathan,

I'm glad you decided to continue sharing your improvements to the
Org=>ODT exporter with the rest of the world.

I suggest the merge of this exporter into Org's core goes through
these steps:

1. Make sure there is no name clash on 8+3 systems.  As per
   last git version of Org, these two files in contrib/odt/OASIS
   will clash:

   OpenDocument-v1.2-cs01-manifest-schema.rng
   OpenDocument-v1.2-cs01-schema.rng

2. Make sure there is no license problem with the schema files.
   My model here is emacs/etc/schemas/ where:

   - the README file clearly says what files have what permissions;
   - most of the time, when the copyright does not belong to the FSF,
     permissions are stated directly within the file.  

     See emacs/etc/schema/calstbl.rnc for example.

   When checking OpenDocument-schema-v1.1.rng from Org's contrib
   directory (I've only checked this one) I saw a non-FSF copyright with
   no license mentioned, so I thought this could be a problem.  If this
   is not a problem, I need to understand why -- perhaps this will not
   be a problem because the license of the file will be mentioned in
   etc/schema/README.

3. Last but not least, I would like us to work on merging org-html.el
   and org-xhtml.el.  I know this is a daunting task, but there is too
   much duplicate code in these two files, the more we wait, the heavier
   the maintainance burden will be.  I'm open to any suggestion that
   would spare us this (boring) work...

Let me know what you think about my suggestion above.

I am not a professional programmer and I'm always willing to learn,
so please bare with me.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Not merging org-lparse, org-xhtml & org-odt to the core

[Jambunathan K]

> Let me know what you think about my suggestion above.

I will spawn a separate thread and let's strictly stick to that
particular thread for all merge related discussions.

> I am not a professional programmer and I'm always willing to learn,
> so please bare with me.

I would be the last person in the world to thump my chest over the most
useless of labels. I used the word only to set some context and bring
some gravity to the discussion.

Jambunathan K.

How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Herbert Sitz]

I'm trying to see if there is a way to include comments on export, to show up as
something like the comments boxes you see in MS Word.

I see Eric Schulte did some work on this and that somehow it ended up (I think)
as part of what you could do using the org-exp-blocks addon.  But I'm not sure
how you actually use it.

Can someone give an example of how org-exp-blocks (or anything else) could be
used to export comment blocks as graphic notes in the text?

Thanks,

Herb

Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Herbert Sitz]

Herbert Sitz <hesitz <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> Can someone give an example of how org-exp-blocks (or anything else) could be
> used to export comment blocks as graphic notes in the text?
> 

Just to add a bit.  I do have the following line in my .emacs:

      (require 'org-exp-blocks)

and I have a comment like this in my document:

--- sample text below ----------
* Heading one
text here
#+begin_comment
some comment text here
#+end_comment
* Heading two
--- sample text above ----------


When I export it the headings and text print out but the comment doesn't.  I
assume I need to do something more than have the 'require' for org-exp-blocks in
my .emacs but I can't figure out what it is.

-- Herb

Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Nick Dokos]

Herbert Sitz <hesitz@gmail.com> wrote:

> Herbert Sitz <hesitz <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > 
> > Can someone give an example of how org-exp-blocks (or anything else) could be
> > used to export comment blocks as graphic notes in the text?
> > 
> 
> Just to add a bit.  I do have the following line in my .emacs:
> 
>       (require 'org-exp-blocks)
> 
> and I have a comment like this in my document:
> 
> --- sample text below ----------
> * Heading one
> text here
> #+begin_comment
> some comment text here
> #+end_comment
> * Heading two
> --- sample text above ----------
> 
> 
> When I export it the headings and text print out but the comment doesn't.  I
> assume I need to do something more than have the 'require' for org-exp-blocks in
> my .emacs but I can't figure out what it is.
> 

The only documentation there is seems to be in the file itself (and that is
not very complete). If you get it working, you might want to submit a patch
to improve the documentation.

Two hints from org-exp-blocks.el:

,----
| ;; This is a utility for pre-processing blocks in org files before
| ;; export using the `org-export-preprocess-hook'.  It can be used for
`----

,----
| (defun org-export-blocks-preprocess ()
|   "Export all blocks according to the `org-export-blocks' block export alist.
| Does not export block types specified in specified in BLOCKS
| which defaults to the value of `org-export-blocks-witheld'."
`----

So I tried

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(add-hook 'org-export-preprocess-hook (function org-export-blocks-preprocess))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

and I get the comment in the HTML output.

Nick

Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Jambunathan K]

> So I tried
>
> (add-hook 'org-export-preprocess-hook (function org-export-blocks-preprocess))
>
> and I get the comment in the HTML output.

Is it valid a valid xhtml?

M-x nxml-mode 
C-c C-n (assumming rng validation is on)

I find that it suffers from the same problem that cropped up wrt special
blocks. See this thread
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-10/msg00046.html

I think the comment blocks are better handled as special blocks instead
of org-exp-blocks.

ps: I think number of blocks and hooks in Org reflect number of people
that worked on it :-)
-- 

Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Jambunathan K]

Herbert Sitz <hesitz@gmail.com> writes:

> I'm trying to see if there is a way to include comments on export, to show up as
> something like the comments boxes you see in MS Word.

What is your target format? Is it org->odt->doc. If yes, then currently
there is no support for annotations/comments. It is doable. 

I did some investigation of it in some other context - inline tasks. You
can see some of my notes here:

See the Footnotes section of -
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-08/msg00357.html

[odt] Support for annotations/comments

[Jambunathan K]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1570 bytes --]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Herbert Sitz <hesitz@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I'm trying to see if there is a way to include comments on export, to
>> show up as something like the comments boxes you see in MS Word.
>
> What is your target format? Is it org->odt->doc. If yes, then currently
> there is no support for annotations/comments. It is doable. 

I needed an excuse for adding support for annotations. Exporting the
below org will produce the attached odt/pdf files. Note that the pdf
file is produced by LibreOffice pdf export.

Annotations is a ODT only feature right now and will not work with other
backends.

#+TITLE:     annotations.org
#+AUTHOR:    Jambunathan K
#+EMAIL:     kjambunathan@gmail.com
#+DATE:      2011-10-29 Sat
#+DESCRIPTION:
#+KEYWORDS:
#+LANGUAGE:  en
#+OPTIONS:   H:3 num:t toc:t \n:nil @:t ::t |:t ^:t -:t f:t *:t <:t
#+OPTIONS:   TeX:t LaTeX:dvipng skip:nil d:nil todo:t pri:nil tags:not-in-toc

#+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS: export
#+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS: noexport
#+LINK_UP:   
#+LINK_HOME: 
#+XSLT:

* Annotations

There is an annotation by the original author here
#+begin_annotation
Do you see this annotation?
#+end_annotation

There is an annotation by a reviewer - "Someone else" - here.
#+begin_annotation author "Someone else" date "<2011-10-22 Wed 15:43>"
Yes I do.
#+end_annotation

> I did some investigation of it in some other context - inline tasks. You
> can see some of my notes here:
>
> See the Footnotes section of -
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-08/msg00357.html
>
>
>
>
>

-- 

[-- Attachment #2: annotations.odt --]
[-- Type: application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text, Size: 9082 bytes --]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #3: annotations.org --]
[-- Type: text/x-org, Size: 699 bytes --]

#+TITLE:     annotations.org
#+AUTHOR:    Jambunathan K
#+EMAIL:     kjambunathan@gmail.com
#+DATE:      2011-10-29 Sat
#+DESCRIPTION:
#+KEYWORDS:
#+LANGUAGE:  en
#+OPTIONS:   H:3 num:t toc:t \n:nil @:t ::t |:t ^:t -:t f:t *:t <:t
#+OPTIONS:   TeX:t LaTeX:dvipng skip:nil d:nil todo:t pri:nil tags:not-in-toc

#+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS: export
#+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS: noexport
#+LINK_UP:   
#+LINK_HOME: 
#+XSLT:

* Annotations

There is an annotation by the original author here
#+begin_annotation
Do you see this annotation?
#+end_annotation

There is an annotation by a reviewer - "Someone else" - here.
#+begin_annotation author "Someone else" date "<2011-10-22 Wed 15:43>"
Yes I do.
#+end_annotation

[-- Attachment #4: annotations.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 38599 bytes --]

Re: [odt] Support for annotations/comments

[Herbert Sitz]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> I needed an excuse for adding support for annotations. Exporting the
> below org will produce the attached odt/pdf files. Note that the pdf
> file is produced by LibreOffice pdf export.
> 
> Annotations is a ODT only feature right now and will not work with other
> backends.
> 


Wow!  That's great.  I wasn't thinking of odt, have never used it, but 
maybe I will check into it.  I loaded into Word 2007 and it gave some 
error message but displayed the comments fine.  And of course they work 
great in the LibreOffice pdf.

Thanks,

Herb

Re: [odt] Support for annotations/comments

[Bastien]

Hi Jambunathan,

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I needed an excuse for adding support for annotations. Exporting the
> below org will produce the attached odt/pdf files. Note that the pdf
> file is produced by LibreOffice pdf export.

This is very nice, thanks!

> Annotations is a ODT only feature right now and will not work with other
> backends.

We can also try to implement support for annotations for LaTeX:

  http://pdfcomment.berlios.de/doc/pdfcomment.pdf

Mayber there are other libraries -- can anyone tell which one is
the most usable/frequently-used/simple?

Btw, I would favor #+begin_note as the keyword for annotations.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [odt] Support for annotations/comments

[Torsten Wagner]

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Hi, Jambunathan
On Oct 29, 2011 7:32 AM, "Jambunathan K"
> I needed an excuse for adding support for annotations. Exporting the
> below org will produce the attached odt/pdf files. Note that the pdf
> file is produced by LibreOffice pdf export.
>
> Annotations is a ODT only feature right now and will not work with other
> backends.
Does this include annotations in form of text changes too? Marking removed
or added text?
Would be great to have such a feature. It would require rather less coding
to wrap annotation marks around the result of a diff output  between the
original org file and the modified version.
Hence, we would be able to generate automatically annotaded odt versions of
modified org files.

Totti

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Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Samuel Wales]

We had a wonderful discussion of it once, along with different
possible uses for inline tasks, inclusion of paragraphs, non-exported
headlines for easier structure editing, universal syntax, and
returning text to higher level.

On my blog I use a colored background, which could also serve as comment blocks:

#+HTML: <div style="color: black; background-color: burlywood">

Some text.

#+HTML: </div>

A bit rudimentary perhaps.

Samuel

On 2011-10-24, Herbert Sitz <hesitz@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm trying to see if there is a way to include comments on export, to show
> up as
> something like the comments boxes you see in MS Word.
>
> I see Eric Schulte did some work on this and that somehow it ended up (I
> think)
> as part of what you could do using the org-exp-blocks addon.  But I'm not
> sure
> how you actually use it.
>
> Can someone give an example of how org-exp-blocks (or anything else) could
> be
> used to export comment blocks as graphic notes in the text?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com
===
Bigotry against people with serious diseases is still bigotry.

Re: How to include comments on export? org-exp-blocks.el?

[Eric Schulte]

There are currently begin/end_comment blocks implemented as part of
org-exp-blocks.el.  See the `org-export-blocks-format-comment' function
which is fairly simple and should not be difficult to customize.

Best,

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> We had a wonderful discussion of it once, along with different
> possible uses for inline tasks, inclusion of paragraphs, non-exported
> headlines for easier structure editing, universal syntax, and
> returning text to higher level.
>
> On my blog I use a colored background, which could also serve as comment blocks:
>
> #+HTML: <div style="color: black; background-color: burlywood">
>
> Some text.
>
> #+HTML: </div>
>
> A bit rudimentary perhaps.
>
> Samuel
>
> On 2011-10-24, Herbert Sitz <hesitz@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm trying to see if there is a way to include comments on export, to show
>> up as
>> something like the comments boxes you see in MS Word.
>>
>> I see Eric Schulte did some work on this and that somehow it ended up (I
>> think)
>> as part of what you could do using the org-exp-blocks addon.  But I'm not
>> sure
>> how you actually use it.
>>
>> Can someone give an example of how org-exp-blocks (or anything else) could
>> be
>> used to export comment blocks as graphic notes in the text?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>>

-- 
Eric Schulte
http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/

table alignment failed for Asian characters

[Torsten Wagner]

Hi,
just noticed, that the table alignment fails if I use Asian characters
within the table. Guess this has nothing to do with the table itself
but rather something with the different spacing of different character
sets.
Maybe someone had a similar problem already and know how to solve this.

Thanks
Torsten

Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters

[Carsten Dominik]

On Oct 27, 2011, at 1:33 PM, Torsten Wagner wrote:

> Hi,
> just noticed, that the table alignment fails if I use Asian characters
> within the table. Guess this has nothing to do with the table itself
> but rather something with the different spacing of different character
> sets.
> Maybe someone had a similar problem already and know how to solve this.

If you are wondering if this question has come up before, why don't you try the FAQ?

- Carsten

Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters

[Torsten Wagner]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>On Oct 27, 2011, at 1:33 PM, Torsten Wagner wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> just noticed, that the table alignment fails if I use Asian
>characters
>> within the table. Guess this has nothing to do with the table itself
>> but rather something with the different spacing of different
>character
>> sets.
>> Maybe someone had a similar problem already and know how to solve
>this.
>
>If you are wondering if this question has come up before, why don't you
>try the FAQ?
Hehe I could simply say I like so much to talk to the org family.... but indeed I simply forgot about it. Well the FAQ tells me what I thought already. I will post here a specific solution for Japanese and it might be added to the FAQ later. Maybe others can contribute to add Chinese, Korean and other languages.
Thanks

Torsten

Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters

[Carsten Dominik]

On Oct 27, 2011, at 3:26 PM, Torsten Wagner wrote:

> 
> 
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Oct 27, 2011, at 1:33 PM, Torsten Wagner wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> just noticed, that the table alignment fails if I use Asian
>> characters
>>> within the table. Guess this has nothing to do with the table itself
>>> but rather something with the different spacing of different
>> character
>>> sets.
>>> Maybe someone had a similar problem already and know how to solve
>> this.
>> 
>> If you are wondering if this question has come up before, why don't you
>> try the FAQ?
> Hehe I could simply say I like so much to talk to the org family.... but indeed I simply forgot about it. Well the FAQ tells me what I thought already. I will post here a specific solution for Japanese and it might be added to the FAQ later. Maybe others can contribute to add Chinese, Korean and other languages.

That would be great, and updating thee FAQ with more detailed information will be even better.

I think if you search the mailing list, there is some info there already:

http://search.gmane.org/?query=table+align+chinese&author=&group=gmane.emacs.orgmode&sort=relevance&DEFAULTOP=and&xP=Zasian%09Ztabl&xFILTERS=Gemacs.orgmode---A


- Carsten

> Thanks
> 
> Torsten
> 

- Carsten

Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters

[Giovanni Ridolfi]

Torsten Wagner <torsten.wagner@gmail.com> writes:

> Well the FAQ tells me
> what I thought already. I will post here a specific solution for
> Japanese and it might be added to the FAQ later. Maybe others can
> contribute to add Chinese, Korean and other languages.

Personally I think that it does not woth to add a *specific*
solution for the faq, who knows how many non-fixed-width *fonts*
are out there ! ;-)

But I leave the last word to Matt Lundin. (cc)

Cheers,
Giovanni

Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters

[Carsten Dominik]

On Oct 27, 2011, at 4:00 PM, Giovanni Ridolfi wrote:

> Torsten Wagner <torsten.wagner@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Well the FAQ tells me
>> what I thought already. I will post here a specific solution for
>> Japanese and it might be added to the FAQ later. Maybe others can
>> contribute to add Chinese, Korean and other languages.
> 
> Personally I think that it does not woth to add a *specific*
> solution for the faq, who knows how many non-fixed-width *fonts*
> are out there ! ;-)

No, but what would help is information on how to identify a font where each character is an integer width.  And maybe a few example fonts.

- Carsten

> 
> But I leave the last word to Matt Lundin. (cc)
> 
> Cheers,
> Giovanni

- Carsten

Re: table alignment failed for Asian characters

[Jambunathan K]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> On Oct 27, 2011, at 4:00 PM, Giovanni Ridolfi wrote:
>
>> Torsten Wagner <torsten.wagner@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> Well the FAQ tells me
>>> what I thought already. I will post here a specific solution for
>>> Japanese and it might be added to the FAQ later. Maybe others can
>>> contribute to add Chinese, Korean and other languages.
>> 
>> Personally I think that it does not woth to add a *specific*
>> solution for the faq, who knows how many non-fixed-width *fonts*
>> are out there ! ;-)
>
> No, but what would help is information on how to identify a font where
> each character is an integer width.  And maybe a few example fonts.


If you do a 

C-h C-\ RET tamil-itrans RET 

you will see a nicely aligned table which gives translation table for
tamil characters - (OK, Tamil is the language I speak) - which look like

http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?msg=56;filename=temp.png;att=1;bug=9336

Each entry is a *single* character but it made up of as much as 3 glyphs
(?) with each glyph being of fixed width(?). The alignment is produced
by doing something like:

,---- See (find-file (locate-library "indian.el"))
| (propertize "\t" 'display (list 'space :align-to clm))
`----

I wonder whether similar strategy could be adopted.

ps: I don't understand much of what I am speaking. But I would like to
be able to use Tamil tables in Orgmode tables even though I may never
use it - sounds paradoxical isn't it.


> - Carsten
>
>> 
>> But I leave the last word to Matt Lundin. (cc)
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Giovanni
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>

--