BUG: org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr without requiring cl

BUG: org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr without requiring cl

[Adam Spiers]

org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr but does not require the cl
package; this results in

  *ERROR*: Symbol's function definition is void: caddr

when bzg/org-annotate-helper is invoked.

Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi,

this is in response to the discussions about beamer
export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
I polish I would like comments on this outline.

NOW is the time to chime in.

Thanks!

- Carsten

                               beamerdoc
                               =========

Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
Date: 2009-11-26 12:08:45 CET



Table of Contents
=================
1 Organization
     1.1 Sections
     1.2 Frames
     1.3 Columns
     1.4 A column
     1.5 Block-like environments
     1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
     1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
     1.8 Embedded LaTeX
     1.9 Example
2 org-beamer-mode
     2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
     2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags


1 Organization
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1.1 Sections
=============

By default, level one headlines become sections in the beamer
document.  You can configure the variable org-beamer-frame-level
to change this.  Setting it to three will make level 2 headlines
become subsections.  For the rest of this document, I will assume
that this variable has its default value 2.

1.2 Frames
===========
Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
no title.  If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line
will be split at that location, and the second half become the
frame /subtitle/.

1.3 Columns
============
Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
"columns" in this headline anyway.

1.4 A column
=============
Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
one and will be used to define the column width.

1.5 Block-like environments
============================
Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.

1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
===============================================
Any headline can contain three types of cookies

`<...>': The overlay/action setting for the environment
`[<...>]': The default overlay/action specification for the
      content of the environment, which can be overwritten locally
      by each content element.
`[...]': Optional argument(s) for the environment

These can be given in arbitrary order freely in the headline.
Org-mode will fish them out and insert them in the appropriate
locations in the \begin statement of the environment.

Having these cookies plainly in the headline reduces the
usability of the document as a normal document.  I have been
thinking to move them into comments or properties, but I think
this is, in the end, less convenient.  I people want to export
these in other ways as well, we can write a function to clean
up....

1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
=======================================
For plain list environments (ordered, unordered, and description
lists) you can start each item optionally with an overlay
specification `<...>'.  If any item in the list contains a
default specification `[<...>]', this will be moved into the
begin statement of the itemize/enumerate/description environment,
to provide a default setting for the list items.

1.8 Embedded LaTeX
===================
As is normal for Org-mode, you can embed LaTeX commands into the
text, and they will be transferred literally into the exported
document.  In particular, you can also embed beamer-specific
commands.

1.9 Example
============
Here is a (still very incomplete) example Org document that is
intended for beamer export.

   #+LaTeX_CLASS: beamer
   #+TITLE: Example Presentation
   #+AUTHOR: Carsten Dominik

   * This is the first structural section
   ** Frame 1 \\ with a subtitle
   *** columns will be used
   **** 0.3
   ***** Thanks   :B_block:
         Thanks to Eric Fraga for the first viable beamer setup in Org
   ***** Here we continue after the block :B_normal:
         using a "normal" environment that helps to keep the structure
         after a block
   **** 0.7
   ** Frame 2 \\ where we will not use columns
   ***  
Request 
                                                          :B_block:
       Please test this stuff!

2 org-beamer-mode
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Org-mode defines a minor mode org-beamer-mode.  The mode is
turned on automatically when the export class as specified
in #+LaTeX_CLASS is "beamer".  Currently foreseen features are
listed below, more could be added where it makes sense.

2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
===============================================
The command `C-c C-b' will offer fast selection of the various
tags that trigger specific beamer environments for a headline

2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags
========================================
The special tags are highlighted by a special font



- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs]

Hiho!

Sounds very reasonable!

Carsten Dominik schrieb:
> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
> hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
> I polish I would like comments on this outline.
> 
> NOW is the time to chime in.

-- 
        Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs <friedel@nomaden.org>
                             TauPan on Ircnet and Freenode ;)

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi Carsten,

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> [...] before I polish I would like comments on this outline.
>
> 1 Organization
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> 1.1 Sections
> =============
>
> By default, level one headlines become sections in the beamer
> document.  You can configure the variable org-beamer-frame-level
> to change this.  Setting it to three will make level 2 headlines
> become subsections.  For the rest of this document, I will assume
> that this variable has its default value 2.

I was used to use Org level-1 headlines as the frame title... but I've never
resolved how to put sections in my beamer slides (via Org) -- though this was
not that important yet for me, as I only converted slides made by others in
PowerPoint, and they don't have such sections (and TOC visible in the left
bar).

Though, I find this way of structuring excellent: sound and logical. Plus it
is even customizable. What else would we want?  Nothing...


> 1.2 Frames
> ===========
> Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
> org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
> the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
> no title.  If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line
> will be split at that location, and the second half become the
> frame /subtitle/.

Excellent. Really.


> 1.3 Columns
> ============
> Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
> columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
> beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
> text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
> "columns" in this headline anyway.

Would *I* be asked about my true opinion, I would really object against this
one... Except that you say "can be used". So, I guess we're not forced.

My main "problem" here is that I like the idea of being to convert back or
forward between Org documents and Org-beamer documents. Such headlines would
not mean anything for a "normal" Org document, as you already pointed out.

Now, if this is not the default interpretation, it could be OK for everybody.
We should show this in the example below:
- normal level-3 headlines (level-1 for Beamer) and
- "column" level-3 headlines.


> 1.4 A column
> =============
> Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
> column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
> one and will be used to define the column width.
>
> 1.5 Block-like environments
> ============================
> Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
> with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
> creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
> the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
> headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
> environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.
>
> 1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
> ===============================================
> Any headline can contain three types of cookies
>
> `<...>': The overlay/action setting for the environment
> `[<...>]': The default overlay/action specification for the
>      content of the environment, which can be overwritten locally
>      by each content element.
> `[...]': Optional argument(s) for the environment
>
> These can be given in arbitrary order freely in the headline.
> Org-mode will fish them out and insert them in the appropriate
> locations in the \begin statement of the environment.

I never really used overlays yet (only to play with). Though, this seems nice
to me, even if...

> Having these cookies plainly in the headline reduces the
> usability of the document as a normal document.  I have been
> thinking to move them into comments or properties, but I think
> this is, in the end, less convenient.  I people want to export
> these in other ways as well, we can write a function to clean
> up....
>
> 1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
> =======================================
> For plain list environments (ordered, unordered, and description
> lists) you can start each item optionally with an overlay
> specification `<...>'.  If any item in the list contains a
> default specification `[<...>]', this will be moved into the
> begin statement of the itemize/enumerate/description environment,
> to provide a default setting for the list items.
>
> 1.8 Embedded LaTeX
> ===================
> As is normal for Org-mode, you can embed LaTeX commands into the
> text, and they will be transferred literally into the exported
> document.  In particular, you can also embed beamer-specific
> commands.
>
> 1.9 Example
> ============
> Here is a (still very incomplete) example Org document that is
> intended for beamer export.
>
>   #+LaTeX_CLASS: beamer
>   #+TITLE: Example Presentation
>   #+AUTHOR: Carsten Dominik
>
>   * This is the first structural section
>   ** Frame 1 \\ with a subtitle
>   *** columns will be used
>   **** 0.3
>   ***** Thanks   :B_block:
>         Thanks to Eric Fraga for the first viable beamer setup in Org
>   ***** Here we continue after the block :B_normal:
>         using a "normal" environment that helps to keep the structure
>         after a block
>   **** 0.7
>   ** Frame 2 \\ where we will not use columns
>   *** Request                                                        :B_block:
>       Please test this stuff!

I don't know if this can help you/us, but here is an example file I play with.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
#+TITLE:     All-in file for testing Beamer with Org-mode
#+AUTHOR:    Seb Vauban
#+DATE:      2009-11-26
#+DESCRIPTION: 
#+KEYWORDS: 
#+LANGUAGE:  en
#+OPTIONS:   H:3 num:t toc:t \n:nil @:t ::t |:t ^:t -:t f:t *:t <:t

#+LaTeX_CLASS: beamer

#+MACRO: BEAMERMODE presentation
#+MACRO: BEAMERTHEME mc



* Development
** Context
*** Currently mainly manual
*** Error prone
*** High risks
** Requirements
*** Quality
**** Reduce risk
**** Reduce cost
**** Improve resilience
*** Flexibility
**** Enhance agility


* Architecture
** High-level view
   #+BEGIN_ditaa archi.png
   /-----------\      /--------------\      /--------------\      +----------+
   |cBLU       |      |cBLU          |      |cRED          |      |cBLU {s}  |
   |  Browser  | http |      UI      | gpb  | App Server   |      | Database |
   |           |------|              |------|              |------|          |
   \-----------/      \--------------/      \--------------/      +----------+
   #+END_ditaa


* Why?
** Reason 1
   Text explaining reason 1.
** Reason 2
   ... more explanations.
** Reason 3
   Blah, blah, blah.
** Reason 4
   Why not?


* What?
** First piece
*** Second piece
**** Third piece
** Fourth piece


* Rule language
** Horn clauses
** Allowed atoms
*** Class literals
*** Property literals
*** Builtin literals
#   #+LaTeX: \begin{lstlisting}
#   months_employed(?applicant, ?months) ~$\wedge$~
#   lessThan(?months, 3) ~$\wedge$~
#   assets(?applicant, ?assets) ~$\wedge$~
#   lessThan(?assets, 10000.0)
#   ~$\rightarrow$~ RejectedApplicant(?applicant)
#   #+LaTeX: \end{lstlisting}
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Don't know why, but the block code does not work anymore (just commented it).
Have not time to debug it now -- have to work for my clients. Will do later.

Our example should still include:
- C code (or other),
- table,
- big image,
- "wrapped" image,
- overlay image (appears/disappears with animations),
- TikZ picture,
- etc.

Maybe we can put such a "test" file in git, and enhance it as we go?


> 2 org-beamer-mode
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Org-mode defines a minor mode org-beamer-mode.  The mode is
> turned on automatically when the export class as specified
> in #+LaTeX_CLASS is "beamer".  Currently foreseen features are
> listed below, more could be added where it makes sense.
>
> 2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
> ===============================================
> The command `C-c C-b' will offer fast selection of the various
> tags that trigger specific beamer environments for a headline
>
> 2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags
> ========================================
> The special tags are highlighted by a special font

If I sum up, all of this seems to me:

    Ex-cel-lent!

My concern is just to ensure we can easily transform a normal Org document to
Beamer slides, or even have both versions in one file (handouts + notes).
Though, I must admit I have no example of the latter in Beamer either. Still a
young user of Beamer.

Best regards and many thanks for all, once again,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode-mXXj517/zsQ@public.gmane.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Sebastian,


On Nov 26, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Sébastien Vauban wrote:

> Hi Carsten,
>
> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> [...] before I polish I would like comments on this outline.
>>
>> 1 Organization
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> 1.1 Sections
>> =============
>>
>> By default, level one headlines become sections in the beamer
>> document.  You can configure the variable org-beamer-frame-level
>> to change this.  Setting it to three will make level 2 headlines
>> become subsections.  For the rest of this document, I will assume
>> that this variable has its default value 2.
>
> I was used to use Org level-1 headlines as the frame title... but  
> I've never
> resolved how to put sections in my beamer slides (via Org) -- though  
> this was
> not that important yet for me, as I only converted slides made by  
> others in
> PowerPoint, and they don't have such sections (and TOC visible in  
> the left
> bar).
>
> Though, I find this way of structuring excellent: sound and logical.  
> Plus it
> is even customizable. What else would we want?  Nothing...
>
>
>> 1.2 Frames
>> ===========
>> Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
>> org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
>> the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
>> no title.  If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line
>> will be split at that location, and the second half become the
>> frame /subtitle/.
>
> Excellent. Really.
>
>
>> 1.3 Columns
>> ============
>> Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
>> columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
>> beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
>> text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
>> "columns" in this headline anyway.
>
> Would *I* be asked about my true opinion, I would really object  
> against this
> one... Except that you say "can be used". So, I guess we're not  
> forced.

Of course *you* are asked.

I am wondering:  What function do the headlines in your document
under the frame level have?  How do you export them?  I guess
you can't have them spit out subsection or so.  What you your
class configuration?


>
> My main "problem" here is that I like the idea of being to convert  
> back or
> forward between Org documents and Org-beamer documents. Such  
> headlines would
> not mean anything for a "normal" Org document, as you already  
> pointed out.
>
> Now, if this is not the default interpretation, it could be OK for  
> everybody.
> We should show this in the example below:
> - normal level-3 headlines (level-1 for Beamer) and
> - "column" level-3 headlines.

Yes, this would be useful.  Indeed, we should work on an extensive  
example once we have settled for a structure/format.  Which is not yet  
the case.

- Carsten

>
>
>> 1.4 A column
>> =============
>> Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
>> column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
>> one and will be used to define the column width.
>>
>> 1.5 Block-like environments
>> ============================
>> Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
>> with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
>> creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
>> the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
>> headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
>> environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.
>>
>> 1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
>> ===============================================
>> Any headline can contain three types of cookies
>>
>> `<...>': The overlay/action setting for the environment
>> `[<...>]': The default overlay/action specification for the
>>     content of the environment, which can be overwritten locally
>>     by each content element.
>> `[...]': Optional argument(s) for the environment
>>
>> These can be given in arbitrary order freely in the headline.
>> Org-mode will fish them out and insert them in the appropriate
>> locations in the \begin statement of the environment.
>
> I never really used overlays yet (only to play with). Though, this  
> seems nice
> to me, even if...
>
>> Having these cookies plainly in the headline reduces the
>> usability of the document as a normal document.  I have been
>> thinking to move them into comments or properties, but I think
>> this is, in the end, less convenient.  I people want to export
>> these in other ways as well, we can write a function to clean
>> up....
>>
>> 1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
>> =======================================
>> For plain list environments (ordered, unordered, and description
>> lists) you can start each item optionally with an overlay
>> specification `<...>'.  If any item in the list contains a
>> default specification `[<...>]', this will be moved into the
>> begin statement of the itemize/enumerate/description environment,
>> to provide a default setting for the list items.
>>
>> 1.8 Embedded LaTeX
>> ===================
>> As is normal for Org-mode, you can embed LaTeX commands into the
>> text, and they will be transferred literally into the exported
>> document.  In particular, you can also embed beamer-specific
>> commands.
>>
>> 1.9 Example
>> ============
>> Here is a (still very incomplete) example Org document that is
>> intended for beamer export.
>>
>>  #+LaTeX_CLASS: beamer
>>  #+TITLE: Example Presentation
>>  #+AUTHOR: Carsten Dominik
>>
>>  * This is the first structural section
>>  ** Frame 1 \\ with a subtitle
>>  *** columns will be used
>>  **** 0.3
>>  ***** Thanks   :B_block:
>>        Thanks to Eric Fraga for the first viable beamer setup in Org
>>  ***** Here we continue after the block :B_normal:
>>        using a "normal" environment that helps to keep the structure
>>        after a block
>>  **** 0.7
>>  ** Frame 2 \\ where we will not use columns
>>  ***  
>> Request 
>>                                                         :B_block:
>>      Please test this stuff!
>
> I don't know if this can help you/us, but here is an example file I  
> play with.
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> #+TITLE:     All-in file for testing Beamer with Org-mode
> #+AUTHOR:    Seb Vauban
> #+DATE:      2009-11-26
> #+DESCRIPTION:
> #+KEYWORDS:
> #+LANGUAGE:  en
> #+OPTIONS:   H:3 num:t toc:t \n:nil @:t ::t |:t ^:t -:t f:t *:t <:t
>
> #+LaTeX_CLASS: beamer
>
> #+MACRO: BEAMERMODE presentation
> #+MACRO: BEAMERTHEME mc
>
>
>
> * Development
> ** Context
> *** Currently mainly manual
> *** Error prone
> *** High risks
> ** Requirements
> *** Quality
> **** Reduce risk
> **** Reduce cost
> **** Improve resilience
> *** Flexibility
> **** Enhance agility
>
>
> * Architecture
> ** High-level view
>   #+BEGIN_ditaa archi.png
>   /-----------\      /--------------\      /--------------\       
> +----------+
>   |cBLU       |      |cBLU          |      |cRED          |      | 
> cBLU {s}  |
>   |  Browser  | http |      UI      | gpb  | App Server   |      |  
> Database |
>   |           |------|              |------|               
> |------|          |
>   \-----------/      \--------------/      \--------------/       
> +----------+
>   #+END_ditaa
>
>
> * Why?
> ** Reason 1
>   Text explaining reason 1.
> ** Reason 2
>   ... more explanations.
> ** Reason 3
>   Blah, blah, blah.
> ** Reason 4
>   Why not?
>
>
> * What?
> ** First piece
> *** Second piece
> **** Third piece
> ** Fourth piece
>
>
> * Rule language
> ** Horn clauses
> ** Allowed atoms
> *** Class literals
> *** Property literals
> *** Builtin literals
> #   #+LaTeX: \begin{lstlisting}
> #   months_employed(?applicant, ?months) ~$\wedge$~
> #   lessThan(?months, 3) ~$\wedge$~
> #   assets(?applicant, ?assets) ~$\wedge$~
> #   lessThan(?assets, 10000.0)
> #   ~$\rightarrow$~ RejectedApplicant(?applicant)
> #   #+LaTeX: \end{lstlisting}
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> Don't know why, but the block code does not work anymore (just  
> commented it).
> Have not time to debug it now -- have to work for my clients. Will  
> do later.
>
> Our example should still include:
> - C code (or other),
> - table,
> - big image,
> - "wrapped" image,
> - overlay image (appears/disappears with animations),
> - TikZ picture,
> - etc.
>
> Maybe we can put such a "test" file in git, and enhance it as we go?
>
>
>> 2 org-beamer-mode
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Org-mode defines a minor mode org-beamer-mode.  The mode is
>> turned on automatically when the export class as specified
>> in #+LaTeX_CLASS is "beamer".  Currently foreseen features are
>> listed below, more could be added where it makes sense.
>>
>> 2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
>> ===============================================
>> The command `C-c C-b' will offer fast selection of the various
>> tags that trigger specific beamer environments for a headline
>>
>> 2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags
>> ========================================
>> The special tags are highlighted by a special font
>
> If I sum up, all of this seems to me:
>
>    Ex-cel-lent!
>
> My concern is just to ensure we can easily transform a normal Org  
> document to
> Beamer slides, or even have both versions in one file (handouts +  
> notes).
> Though, I must admit I have no example of the latter in Beamer  
> either. Still a
> young user of Beamer.
>
> Best regards and many thanks for all, once again,
>  Seb
>
> -- 
> Sébastien Vauban
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi Carsten,

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Sébastien Vauban wrote:
>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>> [...] before I polish I would like comments on this outline.
>>>
>>> 1 Organization
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> 1.1 Sections
>>> =============
>>>
>>> By default, level one headlines become sections in the beamer
>>> document.  You can configure the variable org-beamer-frame-level
>>> to change this.  Setting it to three will make level 2 headlines
>>> become subsections.  For the rest of this document, I will assume
>>> that this variable has its default value 2.
>>
>> I was used to use Org level-1 headlines as the frame title... but I've never
>> resolved how to put sections in my beamer slides (via Org) -- though this
>> was
>> not that important yet for me, as I only converted slides made by others in
>> PowerPoint, and they don't have such sections (and TOC visible in the left
>> bar).
>>
>> Though, I find this way of structuring excellent: sound and logical. Plus it
>> is even customizable. What else would we want?  Nothing...
>>
>>
>>> 1.3 Columns
>>> ============
>>> Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
>>> columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
>>> beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
>>> text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
>>> "columns" in this headline anyway.
>>
>> Would *I* be asked about my true opinion, I would really object against this
>> one... Except that you say "can be used". So, I guess we're not forced.
>
> Of course *you* are asked.
>
> I am wondering:  What function do the headlines in your document
> under the frame level have?  How do you export them?  I guess
> you can't have them spit out subsection or so.  What you your
> class configuration?

That's what I tried to say above:

>> I was used to use Org level-1 headlines as the frame title... but I've
>> never resolved how to put sections in my beamer slides (via Org).

I currently couldn't have sections in my beamer presentation.

- The level-1 headlines are the frame titles.
- The level-2 headlines are the level-1 items of the slides.

My current configuration:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
      (add-to-list 'org-export-latex-classes
                   '("beamer"
                     "\\documentclass[t]{beamer}
\\mode<{{{beamermode}}}>
{
\\usetheme{{{{beamertheme}}}}
}
\\usepackage[english]{babel}
\\usepackage[utf8x]{inputenc}
\\usepackage{times}
\\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\\usepackage{pgf}
\\institute{{{{beamerinstitute}}}}
\\subject{{{{beamersubject}}}}"
                     ("\\begin{frame}\\frametitle{%s}\\begin{itemize}"
                      "\\end{itemize}\\end{frame}"
                      "\\begin{frame}\\frametitle{%s}\\begin{itemize}" "\\end{itemize}\\end{frame}")
                     ("\\item{%s}" . "\\item*{%s}")))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


>> My main "problem" here is that I like the idea of being to convert back or
>> forward between Org documents and Org-beamer documents. Such headlines would
>> not mean anything for a "normal" Org document, as you already pointed out.
>>
>> Now, if this is not the default interpretation, it could be OK for
>> everybody.
>> We should show this in the example below:
>> - normal level-3 headlines (level-1 for Beamer) and
>> - "column" level-3 headlines.
>
> Yes, this would be useful.  Indeed, we should work on an extensive example
> once we have settled for a structure/format.  Which is not yet  the case.

I'll try to help on that, as much as I can.

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



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Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Nick Dokos]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:

> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
> hot stuff!).

Indeed - Till Tantau has a gift for documentation (among other
gifts). I'd recommend the documentation for pgf/tikz as well. Amazing.

> Then I made the attached draft
> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
> I polish I would like comments on this outline.
> 
> NOW is the time to chime in.
> 

Two questions (with apologies in advance: I've been buried for a while
now, so I may have missed important details):

o How do I test? Is there a beamer template for org-export-latex-classes
  that implements this spec? I just did a git pull but did not see one.

o I didn't see anything about notes (in the beamer sense: speaker notes
  that don't appear in the slides, but do appear in the handout). For
  me, that is one of the most important aspects of beamer: the slides
  are there to remind me what to say (and hopefully to elicit the same
  memory in the audience, after the talk is finished). They provide the
  structure, but they are just a bunch of bones, a skeleton.  The notes
  are the meat of the presentation, so imho it would behoove Org to
  provide a mechanism for notes from the get-go.

Thanks,
Nick

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
>> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
>> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
>> hot stuff!).
>
> Indeed - Till Tantau has a gift for documentation (among other
> gifts). I'd recommend the documentation for pgf/tikz as well. Amazing.

Don't tell me he wrote pgf/tikz as well???

Unbelievable.

>
>> Then I made the attached draft
>> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
>> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
>> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
>> I polish I would like comments on this outline.
>>
>> NOW is the time to chime in.
>>
>
> Two questions (with apologies in advance: I've been buried for a while
> now, so I may have missed important details):
>
> o How do I test? Is there a beamer template for org-export-latex- 
> classes
>  that implements this spec? I just did a git pull but did not see one.

This is still crappy code on a local branch here, I want to figure out  
what
I/we actually want before publishing it.

>
> o I didn't see anything about notes (in the beamer sense: speaker  
> notes
>  that don't appear in the slides, but do appear in the handout). For
>  me, that is one of the most important aspects of beamer: the slides
>  are there to remind me what to say (and hopefully to elicit the same
>  memory in the audience, after the talk is finished). They provide the
>  structure, but they are just a bunch of bones, a skeleton.  The notes
>  are the meat of the presentation, so imho it would behoove Org to
>  provide a mechanism for notes from the get-go.

Yes, I did not look at notes yet.  Good point.

Any succestions?  Subtrees with a B_note tag?

First need to try how notes actually work....

- Carsten

>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
>

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Darlan Cavalcante Moreira]

I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
,----
| \begin{frame}
|   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
|   \begin{itemize}
|     \item Some information
|     \begin{itemize}
|       \item Some information in a subitem
|     \end{itemize}
|     \item more information
|     \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
|   \end{itemize}
| \end{frame}
`----

Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note command directly
in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same slide would be

,----
| * This is the frametitle
|  - Some information
|    - Some information in a subitem
|  - more information
|  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
`----

This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including the note) will
probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this will allow
hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a subtree is
used this would probably not be possible.

The "item" option in the note command is used in beamer to number the notes (I
myself always want this).

Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of the frame
then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not impose where the
notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put them inside a
subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are related to, if
possible.

- Darlan Cavalcante

At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:47:22 +0100,
Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:30 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:
> 
> > Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
> >> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
> >> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
> >> hot stuff!).
> >
> > Indeed - Till Tantau has a gift for documentation (among other
> > gifts). I'd recommend the documentation for pgf/tikz as well. Amazing.
> 
> Don't tell me he wrote pgf/tikz as well???
> 
> Unbelievable.
> 
> >
> >> Then I made the attached draft
> >> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
> >> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
> >> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
> >> I polish I would like comments on this outline.
> >>
> >> NOW is the time to chime in.
> >>
> >
> > Two questions (with apologies in advance: I've been buried for a while
> > now, so I may have missed important details):
> >
> > o How do I test? Is there a beamer template for org-export-latex- 
> > classes
> >  that implements this spec? I just did a git pull but did not see one.
> 
> This is still crappy code on a local branch here, I want to figure out  
> what
> I/we actually want before publishing it.
> 
> >
> > o I didn't see anything about notes (in the beamer sense: speaker  
> > notes
> >  that don't appear in the slides, but do appear in the handout). For
> >  me, that is one of the most important aspects of beamer: the slides
> >  are there to remind me what to say (and hopefully to elicit the same
> >  memory in the audience, after the talk is finished). They provide the
> >  structure, but they are just a bunch of bones, a skeleton.  The notes
> >  are the meat of the presentation, so imho it would behoove Org to
> >  provide a mechanism for notes from the get-go.
> 
> Yes, I did not look at notes yet.  Good point.
> 
> Any succestions?  Subtrees with a B_note tag?
> 
> First need to try how notes actually work....
> 
> - Carsten
> 
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> 
> - Carsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:

>
>
> I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
> ,----
> | \begin{frame}
> |   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
> |   \begin{itemize}
> |     \item Some information
> |     \begin{itemize}
> |       \item Some information in a subitem
> |     \end{itemize}
> |     \item more information
> |     \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this  
> item}
> |   \end{itemize}
> | \end{frame}
> `----
>
> Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note  
> command directly
> in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same  
> slide would be
>
> ,----
> | * This is the frametitle
> |  - Some information
> |    - Some information in a subitem
> |  - more information
> |  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
> `----
>
> This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including  
> the note) will
> probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this  
> will allow
> hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a  
> subtree is
> used this would probably not be possible.
>
> The "item" option in the note command is used in beamer to number  
> the notes (I
> myself always want this).
>
> Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of  
> the frame
> then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not  
> impose where the
> notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put  
> them inside a
> subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are  
> related to, if
> possible.

I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.

One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
for other export.....

I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Darlan Cavalcante Moreira]

At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
> > ,----
> > | \begin{frame}
> > |   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
> > |   \begin{itemize}
> > |     \item Some information
> > |     \begin{itemize}
> > |       \item Some information in a subitem
> > |     \end{itemize}
> > |     \item more information
> > |     \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this  
> > item}
> > |   \end{itemize}
> > | \end{frame}
> > `----
> >
> > Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note  
> > command directly
> > in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same  
> > slide would be
> >
> > ,----
> > | * This is the frametitle
> > |  - Some information
> > |    - Some information in a subitem
> > |  - more information
> > |  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
> > `----
> >
> > This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including  
> > the note) will
> > probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this  
> > will allow
> > hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a  
> > subtree is
> > used this would probably not be possible.
> >
> > The "item" option in the note command is used in beamer to number  
> > the notes (I
> > myself always want this).
> >
> > Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of  
> > the frame
> > then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not  
> > impose where the
> > notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put  
> > them inside a
> > subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are  
> > related to, if
> > possible.
> 
> I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
> in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
> suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
> not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
> 
> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
> for other export.....
> 
> I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
> 
> - Carsten
> 

Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other formats.

For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I intend to
talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation. They
are not really "part of the final exported document" and sometimes I put a lot
of information in them (possible in a different language from the
presentation).

Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure. This
obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
footnote when exporting to other formats.

Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when exporting
to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Nick Dokos]

Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com> wrote:

> At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > >
> > > I usually make my presentations in beamer as below.
> > > ,----
> > > | \begin{frame}
> > > |   \frametitle{This is the frametitle}
> > > |   \begin{itemize}
> > > |     \item Some information
> > > |     \begin{itemize}
> > > |       \item Some information in a subitem
> > > |     \end{itemize}
> > > |     \item more information
> > > |     \item more information \note[item]{This is a note about this  
> > > item}
> > > |   \end{itemize}
> > > | \end{frame}
> > > `----
> > >
> > > Therefore, I think a simple solution is just writing the \note  
> > > command directly
> > > in org that would then be passed to beamer. In org-mode the same  
> > > slide would be
> > >
> > > ,----
> > > | * This is the frametitle
> > > |  - Some information
> > > |    - Some information in a subitem
> > > |  - more information
> > > |  - more information \note[item]{This is a note about this item}
> > > `----
> > >
> > > This avoids cluttering the org file and since the item (including  
> > > the note) will
> > > probably span more then one line, then just leaving notes like this  
> > > will allow
> > > hiding everything with the outline capabilities of org-mode. If a  
> > > subtree is
> > > used this would probably not be possible.
> > >
> > > The "item" option in the note command is used in beamer to number  
> > > the notes (I
> > > myself always want this).
> > >
> > > Of course that if everyone else like to put the notes at the end of  
> > > the frame
> > > then a subtree with all the notes makes sense. Beamer does not  
> > > impose where the
> > > notes should be inside the frame and I can reeducate myself to put  
> > > them inside a
> > > subtree, but I'd like to leave the notes near the items they are  
> > > related to, if
> > > possible.
> > 
> > I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
> > in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
> > suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
> > not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
> > 
> > One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
> > for other export.....
> > 
> > I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
> > 
> > - Carsten
> > 
> 
> Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other formats.
> 
> For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I intend to
> talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation. They
> are not really "part of the final exported document" and sometimes I put a lot
> of information in them (possible in a different language from the
> presentation).
> 
> Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure. This
> obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
> footnote when exporting to other formats.
> 
> Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when exporting
> to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?
> 

For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
deeper, they can look at the notes.

I've done a handful of presentations using org/beamer and they have all
been written specifically for exporting to beamer. In most cases, I've
had to manipulate the LaTeX output to get what I want (but at least part
of that was because of my own stupidity: my mapping from org to beamer
was much more limited than it had to be - unfortunately, I've not had
the time to go back and rework a presentation in light of what I now
know, so I still can't be much help to say what works and what doesn't).

Given that I only export the presentation to beamer, I'm actually happy
with Darlan's solution. I hope to try it over the Christmas break and
report back.

So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
this.

Nick

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Mark Elston]

I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...

Nick Dokos wrote:
> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...
>>> I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
>>> in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
>>> suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
>>> not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
>>>
>>> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
>>> for other export.....
>>>
>>> I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
>>>
>>> - Carsten
>>>
>> Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other formats.
>>
>> For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I intend to
>> talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation. They
>> are not really "part of the final exported document" and sometimes I put a lot
>> of information in them (possible in a different language from the
>> presentation).
>>
>> Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure. This
>> obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
>> footnote when exporting to other formats.
>>
>> Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when exporting
>> to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?
>>

My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
those in the class to take their own notes from.

I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.

> 
> For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
> say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
> always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
> in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
> deeper, they can look at the notes.

My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
students for a variety of reasons.

> 
> ...
> So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
> org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
> wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
> some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
> this.
> 
> Nick
> 

I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in that I
would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in the
same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.  This
would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which tables,
figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me and
everything happens automatically behind the scenes.

Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired) right
now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability to
maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/PDF
docs.

Mark

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Thomas S. Dye]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4195 bytes --]

Hi Mark,

On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:

> I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
> provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
> I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...
>
> Nick Dokos wrote:
>> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ...
>>>> I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
>>>> in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
>>>> suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
>>>> not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
>>>>
>>>> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
>>>> for other export.....
>>>>
>>>> I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>> Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other  
>>> formats.
>>>
>>> For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what  
>>> I intend to
>>> talk about in the presentation and help me training for the  
>>> presentation. They
>>> are not really "part of the final exported document" and sometimes  
>>> I put a lot
>>> of information in them (possible in a different language from the
>>> presentation).
>>>
>>> Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a  
>>> figure. This
>>> obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them  
>>> into a
>>> footnote when exporting to other formats.
>>>
>>> Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes  
>>> when exporting
>>> to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to  
>>> beamer?
>>>
>
> My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have  
> created
> two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
> these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand  
> the
> notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
> those in the class to take their own notes from.
>
> I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal'  
> text
> as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want  
> to
> manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.
>
>> For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me  
>> what to
>> say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
>> always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague  
>> interest
>> in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a  
>> bit
>> deeper, they can look at the notes.
>
> My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
> students for a variety of reasons.
>
>> ...
>> So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
>> org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would  
>> save
>> wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
>> some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to  
>> handle
>> this.
>> Nick
>
> I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in  
> that I
> would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in  
> the
> same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.   
> This
> would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which  
> tables,
> figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me  
> and
> everything happens automatically behind the scenes.
>
> Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired)  
> right
> now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
> Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability  
> to
> maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/ 
> PDF
> docs.
>
> Mark

I use Org-babel to accomplish this.  Its literate programming facility  
lets you define a block of text and re-use it wherever you like.  You  
can "tangle" as many .tex files as you want from a single Org-mode  
document.

You can find some examples here:

http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/org-babel-uses.php

HTH,
Tom

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Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Mark Elston]

Thomas S. Dye wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:
> 
>> I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
>> provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
>> I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...
>>
>> Nick Dokos wrote:
>>> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com 
>>> <mailto:darcamo@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
>>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:carsten.dominik@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> ...
>>>>> I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
>>>>> in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
>>>>> suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
>>>>> not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
>>>>>
>>>>> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
>>>>> for other export.....
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Carsten
>>>>>
>>>> Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other 
>>>> formats.
>>>>
>>>> For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I 
>>>> intend to
>>>> talk about in the presentation and help me training for the 
>>>> presentation. They
>>>> are not really "part of the final exported document" and sometimes I 
>>>> put a lot
>>>> of information in them (possible in a different language from the
>>>> presentation).
>>>>
>>>> Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a 
>>>> figure. This
>>>> obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
>>>> footnote when exporting to other formats.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes 
>>>> when exporting
>>>> to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?
>>>>
>>
>> My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
>> two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
>> these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
>> notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
>> those in the class to take their own notes from.
>>
>> I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
>> as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
>> manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.
>>
>>> For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
>>> say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
>>> always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
>>> in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
>>> deeper, they can look at the notes.
>>
>> My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
>> students for a variety of reasons.
>>
>>> ...
>>> So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
>>> org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
>>> wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
>>> some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
>>> this.
>>> Nick
>>
>> I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in that I
>> would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in the
>> same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.  This
>> would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which tables,
>> figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me and
>> everything happens automatically behind the scenes.
>>
>> Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired) right
>> now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
>> Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability to
>> maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/PDF
>> docs.
>>
>> Mark
> 
> I use Org-babel to accomplish this.  Its literate programming facility lets you define a block of text and re-use it wherever you like.  You can "tangle" 
> as many .tex files as you want from a single Org-mode document.
> 
> You can find some examples here:
> 
> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/org-babel-uses.php
> 

I had been avoiding the literate programming aspects of org-babel since
my previous experience with literate programming was less than
satisfying.  However, this use may be just what the doctor ordered.
I will have to give it a look.

Mark

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Nick Dokos]

Mark Elston <m_elston@comcast.net> wrote:

> Thomas S. Dye wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:
> >
> >  ...
> >> My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
> >> two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
> >> these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
> >> notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
> >> those in the class to take their own notes from.
> >>
> >> I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
> >> as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
> >> manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.
>
> I use Org-babel to accomplish this.  Its literate programming
> facility lets you define a block of text and re-use it wherever you
> like.  You can "tangle" as many .tex files as you want from a single
> Org-mode document.
>
> You can find some examples here:
>
> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/org-babel-uses.php

IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1]) is to use
selective export:

     #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
     #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export

Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
with the notes tag selected.

HTH,
Nick

[1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
lifetimes...)

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Mark Elston]

Nick Dokos wrote:
> 
> IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1]) is to use
> selective export:
> 
>      #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
>      #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export
> 
> Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
> the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
> with the notes tag selected.
> 

This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
have to play around with the various options to see what works best
for me.

Thanks.

> HTH,
> Nick
> 
> [1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
> hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
> todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
> lifetimes...)
> 

Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...

Mark

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi everyone,

the current state of affairs in beamer support is now in
the master branch of the git repo.

My little draft documentation is now at

    http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-beamer.php

But it is really limited and I am hoping very much that someone
will turn this into something useful!

- Carsten


On Dec 11, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:

> Nick Dokos wrote:
>> IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1])  
>> is to use
>> selective export:
>>     #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
>>     #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export
>> Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
>> the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
>> with the notes tag selected.
>
> This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
> in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
> have to play around with the various options to see what works best
> for me.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> HTH,
>> Nick
>> [1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
>> hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
>> todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
>> lifetimes...)
>
> Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...
>
> Mark
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Carsten,

I've had a chance to look at your first draft of beamer support.   
You've done a terrific job.  So much of the draft is right that it  
helps to focus thoughts on the parts that are candidates for  
discussion and possible change.

Along those lines, I don't think using headlines for  
\begin{columns} ... \end{columns} works very well.  I think headlines  
should be reserved for sectioning, frames, elements of frames (blocks  
and friends), and notes.  Once a headline level has been designated  
for frames (n), then headline n+1 becomes an element of the frame, and  
headline n+2 becomes notes for the frame (following Daniel Martins'  
lead).

To my mind, columns are attributes of a frame, so they might better be  
handled as a property of the frame.  Frame elements are specifically  
assigned to a column, or not, using a property.

Roughly, this would yield the following syntax, which ought to export  
fairly cleanly with the HTML and LaTeX exporters.

#+BEAMER_FRAME_LEVEL 2

* Section 1
** Frame 1
	:PROPERTIES:
	:FRAME_COLS: 2
	:END:
*** Element 1   :block:
	:PROPERTIES:
	:IN_COL: 1
	:END:
	- Item 1
	- Item 2
**** Notes about Element 1 block
	- Keyed to Item 1
	- Keyed to Item 2
*** Element 2   :block:
	:PROPERTIES:
	:IN_COL: 2
	:END:
	- Item 3
	- Item 4
*** Element 3
	This element spans two columns.  The headline doesn't appear on the  
slide.
*** Element 4  (headline doesn't appear on the slide because not a  
block or friend)
	:PROPERTIES:
	:IN_COL: 1
	:END:
	- Item 5
	- Item 6
** Frame 2
  *** Element 1
	- Item 1
	- Item 2
   **** Notes
	- Note for item 1
	- Note for item 2

Thanks again for drafting what should be a very useful addition to the  
already insanely useful org-mode.

HTH,
Tom

On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> the current state of affairs in beamer support is now in
> the master branch of the git repo.
>
> My little draft documentation is now at
>
>   http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-beamer.php
>
> But it is really limited and I am hoping very much that someone
> will turn this into something useful!
>
> - Carsten
>
>
> On Dec 11, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:
>
>> Nick Dokos wrote:
>>> IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1])  
>>> is to use
>>> selective export:
>>>    #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
>>>    #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export
>>> Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
>>> the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
>>> with the notes tag selected.
>>
>> This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
>> in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
>> have to play around with the various options to see what works best
>> for me.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>> HTH,
>>> Nick
>>> [1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about, but
>>> hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time, the
>>> todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
>>> lifetimes...)
>>
>> Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Thomas,


On Dec 21, 2009, at 4:50 PM, Thomas S. Dye wrote:

> Aloha Carsten,
>
> I've had a chance to look at your first draft of beamer support.   
> You've done a terrific job.  So much of the draft is right that it  
> helps to focus thoughts on the parts that are candidates for  
> discussion and possible change.

Thanks for the very positive feedback!

>
> Along those lines, I don't think using headlines for  
> \begin{columns} ... \end{columns} works very well.  I think  
> headlines should be reserved for sectioning, frames, elements of  
> frames (blocks and friends), and notes.  Once a headline level has  
> been designated for frames (n), then headline n+1 becomes an element  
> of the frame, and headline n+2 becomes notes for the frame  
> (following Daniel Martins' lead).

Yes, this is another possibility in the notes-contest - I consider
that discussion as still running and not settled.

>
> To my mind, columns are attributes of a frame, so they might better  
> be handled as a property of the frame.  Frame elements are  
> specifically assigned to a column, or not, using a property.

You might or might not have noticed that the current
implementation is already one iteration further than the
first draft, and I have already followed a path which does
not encourage the use of special levels for the columns
environment.  Instead, it marks elements that *start* a new column.

You proposal is different, but has the disadvantage that each element
has to be labeled as being part of a column.  What is the advantage
of this approach?  Maybe that it is possible to have an element that is
*after* the columns, spanning again the whole frame, before another
element starts a new columns environment.

I can see that this
is desirable, but maybe it would be better to mark column starts
as I am doing now, and then maybe mar an element that is outside
of the column.  The reason why this approach seems (to me!) better is
that it is the shorter path from an outline to frames with columns.
So on  a slide with 10 items, you'd need to mark all ten, while I
need to mark only two in order to distribute the items over two
columns.

- Carsten

P.S. I am also not entirely sure if I understand how exactly
your setup below should look in LaTeX - maybe you can also show
the desired LaTeX output?

>
> Roughly, this would yield the following syntax, which ought to  
> export fairly cleanly with the HTML and LaTeX exporters.
>
> #+BEAMER_FRAME_LEVEL 2
>
> * Section 1
> ** Frame 1
> 	:PROPERTIES:
> 	:FRAME_COLS: 2
> 	:END:
> *** Element 1   :block:
> 	:PROPERTIES:
> 	:IN_COL: 1
> 	:END:
> 	- Item 1
> 	- Item 2
> **** Notes about Element 1 block
> 	- Keyed to Item 1
> 	- Keyed to Item 2
> *** Element 2   :block:
> 	:PROPERTIES:
> 	:IN_COL: 2
> 	:END:
> 	- Item 3
> 	- Item 4
> *** Element 3
> 	This element spans two columns.  The headline doesn't appear on the  
> slide.
> *** Element 4  (headline doesn't appear on the slide because not a  
> block or friend)
> 	:PROPERTIES:
> 	:IN_COL: 1
> 	:END:
> 	- Item 5
> 	- Item 6
> ** Frame 2
> *** Element 1
> 	- Item 1
> 	- Item 2
>  **** Notes
> 	- Note for item 1
> 	- Note for item 2
>
> Thanks again for drafting what should be a very useful addition to  
> the already insanely useful org-mode.
>
> HTH,
> Tom
>
> On Dec 10, 2009, at 10:05 PM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> the current state of affairs in beamer support is now in
>> the master branch of the git repo.
>>
>> My little draft documentation is now at
>>
>>  http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-beamer.php
>>
>> But it is really limited and I am hoping very much that someone
>> will turn this into something useful!
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>> On Dec 11, 2009, at 12:49 AM, Mark Elston wrote:
>>
>>> Nick Dokos wrote:
>>>> IIUC, another way to go (possibly much simpler than org-babel[1])  
>>>> is to use
>>>> selective export:
>>>>   #+EXPORT_SELECT_TAGS:   Tags that select a tree for export
>>>>   #+EXPORT_EXCLUDE_TAGS:  Tags that exclude a tree from export
>>>> Mark the handout and notes sections with different tags and export
>>>> the document twice, once with the handout tag selected and once
>>>> with the notes tag selected.
>>>
>>> This sounds like it would work as well, though it probably results
>>> in a very different org-file organization to make it work.  I will
>>> have to play around with the various options to see what works best
>>> for me.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>> Nick
>>>> [1] NB: org-babel is another area that I know very little about,  
>>>> but
>>>> hope to learn more about during vacation (although by this time,  
>>>> the
>>>> todo list for vacation has expanded sufficiently to occupy several
>>>> lifetimes...)
>>>
>>> Hah!  I know exactly what you mean...
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Scot Becker]

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For what it's worth, my preparation style would follow Mark's.  Chart the
flow of what I want to say in org, ideally using whatever hierarchy I need
to do it, then export the outline and essential detail for
beamer-and/or-handouts.  I'd keep the teaching notes to myself (and keep
them part of the same outline) if there was a way to do it.  I'm happy to
use the \notes{} proposal until the org-hive figures out if something more
elegant can be done.

Scot


On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Mark Elston <m_elston@comcast.net> wrote:

> I have been following this discussion with some interest as it may
> provide the basis for something I am interested in doing as well.
> I hope my discussion doesn't muddy the waters too much...
>
> Nick Dokos wrote:
>
>> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>> I still don't have any better ideas than this to represent notes
>>>> in Org for beamer presentations.  Just writing \noe{...} as you
>>>> suggest will certainly work - the disadvantage is that this does
>>>> not make a lot of sense when exporting to other formats.
>>>>
>>>> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
>>>> for other export.....
>>>>
>>>> I'd really be interested to get more input on this issue.
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>>  Maybe it is better to simple ignore notes when exporting to other
>>> formats.
>>>
>>> For me notes in beamer are useful only to give me an idea of what I
>>> intend to
>>> talk about in the presentation and help me training for the presentation.
>>> They
>>> are not really "part of the final exported document" and sometimes I put
>>> a lot
>>> of information in them (possible in a different language from the
>>> presentation).
>>>
>>> Also, the contents in notes can be anything such as a table or a figure.
>>> This
>>> obviously would result in an error if or if org tried to put them into a
>>> footnote when exporting to other formats.
>>>
>>> Therefore, the question is has anyone here any interest in notes when
>>> exporting
>>> to other formats or do they only make sense when exporting to beamer?
>>>
>>>
> My case is similar.  I teach a class each week and, so far, have created
> two documents; a set of handouts and my notes for teaching.  Generally
> these documents start from the same original and I modify and expand the
> notes I use for teaching while leaving the handouts a smaller doc for
> those in the class to take their own notes from.
>
> I don't use beamer as the handouts tend to be 6-8 pages of 'normal' text
> as it is and my teaching notes are usually far larger.  I don't want to
> manipulate a stack of paper while teaching.
>
>
>
>> For me, notes are rather important: in addition to reminding me what to
>> say, they are essentially a second level to the presentation (and I
>> always include them in any handouts). Somebody who has a vague interest
>> in the subject can look at the slides. If they want to go into it a bit
>> deeper, they can look at the notes.
>>
>
> My case is similar but I don't 'expose' my teaching notes to the
> students for a variety of reasons.
>
>
>> ...
>>
>> So unless somebody comes up with a really good idea, delaying any
>> org-specific implementation might be the best way forward: it would save
>> wear-and-tear on Carsten, allow the rest of us to catch up and gather
>> some experience and perhaps come up with better ideas on how to handle
>> this.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
> I guess my request is similar to what has been discussed above in that I
> would *very* much like to maintain handouts and teaching material in the
> same file and then export it to two different files as necessary.  This
> would make my job a lot easier to manage.  I could decide which tables,
> figures, text, etc are common to both docs and which are just for me and
> everything happens automatically behind the scenes.
>
> Beamer output is not critical for me (or even necessarily desired) right
> now but I would like a way of marking some text for 'limited' export.
> Using a special notation is not a problem if it gives me the ability to
> maintain a single document that I can export to two different LaTeX/PDF
> docs.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
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Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
Carsten Dominik wrote:
> 

[...]

> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
> for other export.....

Carsten,

I wonder if simply turning this on its head wouldn't be a good
solution?  By this I mean to use org-mode footnotes to represent
beamer notes (at least in my view footnotes make no sense in
presentations).  In export, footnotes are translated to notes for
beamer but are treated as usual for all other export targets.

A thought...

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Daniel Martins]

Good idea Eric (footnotes -> \notes)

The only minor problem is number of lines per footnote/note.

When I make notes on Bemaer in general my notes have more than one line.

AFAIK footnotes in org are single lines or you have to separate them
with \par which is not so good.

Daniel

2009/12/15 Eric S Fraga <ucecesf@ucl.ac.uk>:
> At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>
>
> [...]
>
>> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
>> for other export.....
>
> Carsten,
>
> I wonder if simply turning this on its head wouldn't be a good
> solution?  By this I mean to use org-mode footnotes to represent
> beamer notes (at least in my view footnotes make no sense in
> presentations).  In export, footnotes are translated to notes for
> beamer but are treated as usual for all other export targets.
>
> A thought...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Darlan Cavalcante Moreira]

I also thought about suggesting this approach, but the problem is that footnotes
and "beamer notes" are really two different things. Beamer notes can be anything
such as tables, figures, several lines of text (with itemize), display
equations, etc.. At least for me, these examples of beamer notes are common and
if org-mode used standard footnotes as the way to enter notes in beamer then I
wouldn't be able to export to standard latex most of the times.

In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a presentation
they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. If
org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote when
exporting to beamer.

- Darlan Cavalcante


At Tue, 15 Dec 2009 17:07:45 -0200,
Daniel Martins <danielemc@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Good idea Eric (footnotes -> \notes)
> 
> The only minor problem is number of lines per footnote/note.
> 
> When I make notes on Bemaer in general my notes have more than one line.
> 
> AFAIK footnotes in org are single lines or you have to separate them
> with \par which is not so good.
> 
> Daniel
> 
> 2009/12/15 Eric S Fraga <ucecesf@ucl.ac.uk>:
> > At Thu, 10 Dec 2009 17:09:33 +0100,
> > Carsten Dominik wrote:
> >>
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> One option would be to turn all those notes into footnotes
> >> for other export.....
> >
> > Carsten,
> >
> > I wonder if simply turning this on its head wouldn't be a good
> > solution?  By this I mean to use org-mode footnotes to represent
> > beamer notes (at least in my view footnotes make no sense in
> > presentations).  In export, footnotes are translated to notes for
> > beamer but are treated as usual for all other export targets.
> >
> > A thought...
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >
> 
> 
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Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Adam Spiers]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a presentation
> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. If
> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote when
> exporting to beamer.

I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of footnotes
in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.

Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming "X is
much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how the
results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides and
visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the results
are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL was
too small to be legible from the back of the room.

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Dan Davison]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi,
>
> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
> hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
> I polish I would like comments on this outline.
>
> NOW is the time to chime in.

This is all looking like *extremely* good news to me.

I'm trying to test out Carsten's example, but I have a question that
probably just reveals that I haven't understood the discussion: what
exactly are we supposed to use for the "beamer" entry in
org-export-latex-classes?  Are we using the version in Eric Fraga's
original post unmodified? (But that doesn't seem to have the initial
header-string entry?) [Would someone like to make the start of a Worg
page where we can keep the documentation and configuration code etc as
it evolves? I can do it, but only very ignorantly.]

Thanks,

Dan

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:49 PM, Dan Davison wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
>> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
>> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
>> hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
>> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
>> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
>> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
>> I polish I would like comments on this outline.
>>
>> NOW is the time to chime in.
>
> This is all looking like *extremely* good news to me.
>
> I'm trying to test out Carsten's example, but I have a question that
> probably just reveals that I haven't understood the discussion: what
> exactly are we supposed to use for the "beamer" entry in
> org-export-latex-classes?  Are we using the version in Eric Fraga's
> original post unmodified? (But that doesn't seem to have the initial
> header-string entry?) [Would someone like to make the start of a Worg
> page where we can keep the documentation and configuration code etc as
> it evolves? I can do it, but only very ignorantly.]


Nothing of this is yet working with the current org.-mode.  I am  
building special support for this, basically the ability to provide a  
function that does the class support, instead of the list you normally  
have to provide in the org-export-latex-classes variable.  And then  
org-beamer.el which implements this function and the minor mode.

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 17:57:29 +0100,
Carsten Dominik wrote:

[...]

> Nothing of this is yet working with the current org.-mode.  I am
> building special support for this, basically the ability to provide a
> function that does the class support, instead of the list you normally
> have to provide in the org-export-latex-classes variable.  And then

Carsten,

one thing that would be useful (and which I've mentioned in a reply to
Dan) is the ability to specify options for the documentclass
(e.g. bigger, handout).  This would actually be useful in normal latex
export as well, of course.

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi all,

Eric S Fraga wrote:
> one thing that would be useful (and which I've mentioned in a reply to Dan)
> is the ability to specify options for the documentclass (e.g. bigger,
> handout). This would actually be useful in normal latex export as well, of
> course.

Yes, we (would) need such a feature. For example, in our company LaTeX class,
we have options like `black' for uncolored output, or `acro' for putting
automatically an acronym sections. There are others as well.

The number of combinations can explode quite quickly, so that the smart
workaround of Eric is not usable outside of `beamer' and `beamerhandout'.

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



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Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Nov 27, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Sébastien Vauban wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Eric S Fraga wrote:
>> one thing that would be useful (and which I've mentioned in a reply  
>> to Dan)
>> is the ability to specify options for the documentclass (e.g. bigger,
>> handout). This would actually be useful in normal latex export as  
>> well, of
>> course.
>
> Yes, we (would) need such a feature. For example, in our company  
> LaTeX class,
> we have options like `black' for uncolored output, or `acro' for  
> putting
> automatically an acronym sections. There are others as well.

You can now use

#+LaTeX_CLASS_OPTIONS: [black]

and also a property if you are exporting a specific subtree.

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi Carsten,

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> On Nov 27, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Sébastien Vauban wrote:
>> Eric S Fraga wrote:
>>> one thing that would be useful (and which I've mentioned in a reply to
>>> Dan) is the ability to specify options for the documentclass (e.g. bigger,
>>> handout). This would actually be useful in normal latex export as well, of
>>> course.
>>
>> Yes, we (would) need such a feature. For example, in our company LaTeX
>> class, we have options like `black' for uncolored output, or `acro' for
>> putting automatically an acronym sections. There are others as well.
>
> You can now use
>
> #+LaTeX_CLASS_OPTIONS: [black]
>
> and also a property if you are exporting a specific subtree.

Thanks a lot.

Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



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Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

At Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:48:58 +0100,
Carsten Dominik wrote:
> 
> 
> On Nov 27, 2009, at 10:09 AM, Sébastien Vauban wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Eric S Fraga wrote:
> >> one thing that would be useful (and which I've mentioned in a reply
> >> to Dan)
> >> is the ability to specify options for the documentclass (e.g. bigger,
> >> handout). This would actually be useful in normal latex export as
> >> well, of
> >> course.
> >
> > Yes, we (would) need such a feature. For example, in our company
> > LaTeX class,
> > we have options like `black' for uncolored output, or `acro' for
> > putting
> > automatically an acronym sections. There are others as well.
> 
> You can now use
> 
> #+LaTeX_CLASS_OPTIONS: [black]
> 
> and also a property if you are exporting a specific subtree.

Excellent!  I now have my three beamer classes (bigger, smaller,
handout) down to one.  Much easier to manage.

Thanks,
eric

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 11:49:49 -0500,
Dan Davison wrote:

[...]

> 
> I'm trying to test out Carsten's example, but I have a question that
> probably just reveals that I haven't understood the discussion: what
> exactly are we supposed to use for the "beamer" entry in
> org-export-latex-classes?  Are we using the version in Eric Fraga's
> original post unmodified? (But that doesn't seem to have the initial
> header-string entry?) [Would someone like to make the start of a Worg
> page where we can keep the documentation and configuration code etc as
> it evolves? I can do it, but only very ignorantly.]

Dan,

sorry I didn't include everything in those earlier posts.  Here is the
full class definition I have been using (and this works with the
current version of org mode prior to Carsten's proposed changes):

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
("beamer"
	 "\\documentclass[bigger]{beamer}\n\\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}\n\\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}\n\\usepackage{hyperref}\n\\usepackage{verbatim}\n
\\definecolor{verylightgray}{rgb}{0.93,0.93,1.0}
\\mode<beamer>{\\usetheme{progressbar}}
\\mode<handout>{\\usecolortheme[rgb={0.5,0.5,0.5}]{structure}\\usepackage{pgfpages}\\pgfpagesuselayout{4 on 1}[a4paper,landscape,border shrink=5mm]}
\\usepackage[absolute,overlay]{textpos}\\setlength{\\TPHorizModule}{1mm}\\setlength{\\TPVertModule}{1mm}
"
	 ("\\section{%s}" . "\\section*{%s}")
	 ("\\begin{frame}\\frametitle{%s}" "\\end{frame}"
	  "\\begin{frame}\\frametitle{%s}" "\\end{frame}")
	 ("\\begin{columns}%s" "\\end{columns}"
	  "\\begin{columns}%s" "\\end{columns}")
	 ("\\begin{column}{%s\\textwidth}" "\\end{column}"
	  "\\begin{column}{%s\\textwidth}" "\\end{column}")
	 ("\\begin{block}{%s}" "\\end{block}"
	  "\\begin{block}{%s}" "\\end{block}")
	 )
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

You may need to change the beamer theme as I am not sure the progress
bar theme is in the standard beamer distribution (and I've hacked mine
in any case...).

I also have a "beamerhandout" class which looks identical to this one
except that the "handout" option has been passed to the documentclass
statement.  This begs the question: is there any way in org mode to
specify options to the document class?  It would greatly simplify
things!

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Thomas S. Dye]

Hi Carsten,

On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

> Hi,
>
> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
> hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
> I polish I would like comments on this outline.
>
> NOW is the time to chime in.
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Carsten
>

This is a very useful idea.  Beamer is definitely smoking hot stuff!

Org-mode with Beamer works tolerably well now.  Eric Fraga's setup in  
a post a few days ago manages to leverage the core of Beamer  
functionality in plain-vanilla Org-mode.  It would be nice to get all  
of Beamer with Org-mode, but I'm worried that this proposal would  
create a separate species of Org-mode file, which would have a single  
use.  Perhaps my worry is misplaced, but I think it would be more  
useful to embed a Beamer presentation within an Org-mode file.

>                              beamerdoc
>                              =========
>
> Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
> Date: 2009-11-26 12:08:45 CET
>
>
>
> Table of Contents
> =================
> 1 Organization
>    1.1 Sections
>    1.2 Frames
>    1.3 Columns
>    1.4 A column
>    1.5 Block-like environments
>    1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
>    1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
>    1.8 Embedded LaTeX
>    1.9 Example
> 2 org-beamer-mode
>    2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
>    2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags
>
>
> 1 Organization
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> 1.1 Sections
> =============
>
> By default, level one headlines become sections in the beamer
> document.  You can configure the variable org-beamer-frame-level
> to change this.  Setting it to three will make level 2 headlines
> become subsections.  For the rest of this document, I will assume
> that this variable has its default value 2.
>

In Beamer, the use (or not) of sections and subsections is determined  
by the theme, which is also responsible for how the title is  
displayed.  So, some mechanism to set the theme will need to be part  
of the package.  After this, in my experience, is the colortheme.  The  
rather somber colors preferred by the Beamer author don't play too  
well here in Hawai`i, and I typically set the colortheme as well.

> 1.2 Frames
> ===========
> Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
> org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
> the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
> no title.  If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line
> will be split at that location, and the second half become the
> frame /subtitle/.
>
> 1.3 Columns
> ============
> Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
> columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
> beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
> text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
> "columns" in this headline anyway.
>
> 1.4 A column
> =============
> Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
> column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
> one and will be used to define the column width.
>

This idea of a fixed starting point for mapping Org-mode headlines to  
Beamer elements looks very good, if you want to devote an entire Org- 
mode document to a Beamer slide show.  Sebastien Vauban's concerns in  
another message in this thread about all the special requirements for  
headlines in Beamer mode and their effect on the normal Org-mode use  
of the file (I'm paraphrasing) are important.

Would it be possible to tag a headline in some way to indicate "Beamer  
mode starts here" and then have a beamer-export function only export  
appropriately tagged sub-trees?  This would mean that the mapping  
scheme would start at the marked sub-tree level: sections at level n,  
frames at level n+1 (depending on the value of org-beamer-frame- 
level), etc.

With this kind of structure it would be possible to embed more than  
one beamer slide show in an Org-mode file, so there would need to be  
some mechanism to generate separate file names.

> 1.5 Block-like environments
> ============================
> Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
> with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
> creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
> the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
> headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
> environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.
>
> 1.6 Overlay/action tag and environment options
> ===============================================
> Any headline can contain three types of cookies
>
> `<...>': The overlay/action setting for the environment
> `[<...>]': The default overlay/action specification for the
>     content of the environment, which can be overwritten locally
>     by each content element.
> `[...]': Optional argument(s) for the environment
>
> These can be given in arbitrary order freely in the headline.
> Org-mode will fish them out and insert them in the appropriate
> locations in the \begin statement of the environment.
>
> Having these cookies plainly in the headline reduces the
> usability of the document as a normal document.  I have been
> thinking to move them into comments or properties, but I think
> this is, in the end, less convenient.  I people want to export
> these in other ways as well, we can write a function to clean
> up....
>
> 1.7 Overlay/action in list environment
> =======================================
> For plain list environments (ordered, unordered, and description
> lists) you can start each item optionally with an overlay
> specification `<...>'.  If any item in the list contains a
> default specification `[<...>]', this will be moved into the
> begin statement of the itemize/enumerate/description environment,
> to provide a default setting for the list items.
>
> 1.8 Embedded LaTeX
> ===================
> As is normal for Org-mode, you can embed LaTeX commands into the
> text, and they will be transferred literally into the exported
> document.  In particular, you can also embed beamer-specific
> commands.
>
> 1.9 Example
> ============
> Here is a (still very incomplete) example Org document that is
> intended for beamer export.
>
>  #+LaTeX_CLASS: beamer
>  #+TITLE: Example Presentation
>  #+AUTHOR: Carsten Dominik
>
>  * This is the first structural section
>  ** Frame 1 \\ with a subtitle
>  *** columns will be used
>  **** 0.3
>  ***** Thanks   :B_block:
>        Thanks to Eric Fraga for the first viable beamer setup in Org
>  ***** Here we continue after the block :B_normal:
>        using a "normal" environment that helps to keep the structure
>        after a block
>  **** 0.7
>  ** Frame 2 \\ where we will not use columns
>  ***  
> Request 
>                                                          :B_block:
>      Please test this stuff!
>
> 2 org-beamer-mode
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Org-mode defines a minor mode org-beamer-mode.  The mode is
> turned on automatically when the export class as specified
> in #+LaTeX_CLASS is "beamer".  Currently foreseen features are
> listed below, more could be added where it makes sense.
>
> 2.1 Fast tag selection for beamer environments
> ===============================================
> The command `C-c C-b' will offer fast selection of the various
> tags that trigger specific beamer environments for a headline
>
> 2.2 Special font-locking of beamer tags
> ========================================
> The special tags are highlighted by a special font
>
>

I'm looking forward to expanded Beamer support in Org-mode.

All the best,
Tom

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Dan Davison]

<...>
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>
<...>
>> NOW is the time to chime in.

I don't know if this is helpful from someone who hasn't thought through
the details of beamer support but just in case: is there any chance that
we should be thinking at this stage of a generic org-presentation API
which would initially support just beamer but which would leave open the
possibility for others to implement other slide presentation engines?
For example I remember that someone once brought up the possibility on
this list of exporting org to OpenOffice presentation format. And it's
possible to create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS -- although I
never see anyone doing it. There are at least some things in common
between different slide-show engines, such as where to break from slide
to slide, slide titles, non-slide notes, etc.

Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files with the
help of established org mechanisms such as selective subtree
export. E.g. using the heading title to set the column width feels
wrong; the natural reaction is to think that that sort of metadata
should be in a property.

Dan

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sébastien Vauban]

Dan Davison wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>> NOW is the time to chime in.
>
> I don't know if this is helpful from someone who hasn't thought through the
> details of beamer support but just in case: is there any chance that we
> should be thinking at this stage of a generic org-presentation API which
> would initially support just beamer but which would leave open the
> possibility for others to implement other slide presentation engines? For
> example I remember that someone once brought up the possibility on this list
> of exporting org to OpenOffice presentation format. And it's possible to
> create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS -- although I never see
> anyone doing it. There are at least some things in common between different
> slide-show engines, such as where to break from slide to slide, slide
> titles, non-slide notes, etc.

I have absolutely no experience with other "slide" engines in LaTeX. But I
think (as well) it's a good time to think at commonalities between these, so
that one extract the right model, even if we only support Beamer (which I
think is the best) in the first place, and maybe for ever. But it would maybe
ensure we ask ourselves the right questions.

I just know ('ve seen it) that Russell Adams (hep! ;-)) uses Prosper, one of
the old alternatives, before Beamer came on the "market". Maybe he could tell
us some interesting things about this planned construction?


> Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
> presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files

Yes, I do have the same concern. An Org file for Beamer or a standard Org file
should have almost no differences -- except for the class. I think it's even
possible for small and standard slides show that there would be no difference
at all, except once again the length of sentence and the numerous headlines.

At least, the Beamer Org file would be the first mind map, or the skeleton, of
a real-document, would it outgrow from slides to document.


> with the help of established org mechanisms such as selective subtree
> export. E.g. using the heading title to set the column width feels wrong;
> the natural reaction is to think that that sort of metadata should be in a
> property.

I don't know which exact representation it should have, but I'm puzzled by
headlines setting the width of columns, too.

Best regards,
  Fabrice Niessen

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



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Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Russell Adams]

On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 10:38:20PM +0100, S??bastien Vauban wrote:
> I just know ('ve seen it) that Russell Adams (hep!??;-)) uses Prosper, one of
> the old alternatives, before Beamer came on the "market". Maybe he could tell
> us some interesting things about this planned construction?

I heard my name *ears burning*.

I just made my first Beamer presentation in Org recently, and I'm
*sold* on it.

http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/AISTWiki/pub/AIS/Presentations/HoustonAIXUsersGroup_ToolsTipsTricks.pdf

> > Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
> > presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files
> 
> Yes, I do have the same concern. An Org file for Beamer or a standard Org file
> should have almost no differences -- except for the class. I think it's even
> possible for small and standard slides show that there would be no difference
> at all, except once again the length of sentence and the numerous headlines.

I think any Beamer enhancements should be encoded in the headline
properties (section, transition, etc). Don't introduce new syntax,
make it work out of the box with reasonable defaults, and then allow
customization via property drawers for individual headlines, and the
export options header for global options.



------------------------------------------------------------------
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PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:47:53 -0600,
Russell Adams wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 10:38:20PM +0100, S??bastien Vauban wrote:
> > I just know ('ve seen it) that Russell Adams (hep!??;-)) uses Prosper, one of
> > the old alternatives, before Beamer came on the "market". Maybe he could tell
> > us some interesting things about this planned construction?
> 
> I heard my name *ears burning*.
> 
> I just made my first Beamer presentation in Org recently, and I'm
> *sold* on it.
> 
> http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/AISTWiki/pub/AIS/Presentations/HoustonAIXUsersGroup_ToolsTipsTricks.pdf

On this note, the slides I was preparing and which in some sense
motivated this whole org to beamer debate can be found here
temporarily:

  http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~ucecesf/tmp/heatandpipes.pdf

See particularly slide 100 for the type of slide I would like to be
able to handle easily in org mode, if at all possible.

> > > Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
> > > presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files
> > 
> > Yes, I do have the same concern. An Org file for Beamer or a standard Org file
> > should have almost no differences -- except for the class. I think it's even
> > possible for small and standard slides show that there would be no difference
> > at all, except once again the length of sentence and the numerous headlines.
> 
> I think any Beamer enhancements should be encoded in the headline
> properties (section, transition, etc). Don't introduce new syntax,
> make it work out of the box with reasonable defaults, and then allow
> customization via property drawers for individual headlines, and the
> export options header for global options.

I agree with you.  What I've done so far is leverage the current
capabilities of org without requiring any changes.  All of my slides
were generated by my adding my own interpretation of level 3+
headlines, an interpretation that is indeed beamer specific.  This is
probably not ideal but it worked!

However, I must admit that I'm not too bothered about having a
specific interpretation of headlines in my case because I don't mix
presentations with other org content.  My talks are always standalone
files.  Nevertheless, I know others work differently and I'm sure I
can imagine cases where I would like to have a small set of slides
embedded within a larger org files.

Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Nov 27, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Eric S Fraga wrote:

> At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 15:47:53 -0600,
> Russell Adams wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 10:38:20PM +0100, S??bastien Vauban wrote:
>>> I just know ('ve seen it) that Russell Adams (hep!??;-)) uses  
>>> Prosper, one of
>>> the old alternatives, before Beamer came on the "market". Maybe he  
>>> could tell
>>> us some interesting things about this planned construction?
>>
>> I heard my name *ears burning*.
>>
>> I just made my first Beamer presentation in Org recently, and I'm
>> *sold* on it.
>>
>> http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/AISTWiki/pub/AIS/Presentations/HoustonAIXUsersGroup_ToolsTipsTricks.pdf
>
> On this note, the slides I was preparing and which in some sense
> motivated this whole org to beamer debate can be found here
> temporarily:
>
>  http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~ucecesf/tmp/heatandpipes.pdf
>
> See particularly slide 100 for the type of slide I would like to be
> able to handle easily in org mode, if at all possible.

Hi Eric,

here is how I would make your slide 100 with the new setup.  There are  
different ways to do it - for illustration I have made your legend a  
block environment with title "Legend".

* Typical configuration

** Graphics 						    :B_ignoreheading:
    :PROPERTIES:
    :BEAMER_env: ignoreheading
    :BEAMER_col: 0.5
    :END:
    [[./blue.png]]

** Legend							    :B_block:
    :PROPERTIES:
    :BEAMER_env: block
    :BEAMER_col: 0.5
    :END:
    - $P_1$, pressure at the tank liquid surface
    - $h_1$, height of the liquid surface above the pump centre-line at
      the suction inlet
    - $u_1$, liquid velocity on the surface
    - $u_2$, velocity at the pump inlet
    - $h_\mathrm{f}$, total piping friction loss between (1) and (2)

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Dan  wrote:

> <...>
>> On Nov 26, 2009, at 1:17 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>
> <...>
>>> NOW is the time to chime in.
>
> I don't know if this is helpful from someone who hasn't thought  
> through
> the details of beamer support but just in case: is there any chance  
> that
> we should be thinking at this stage of a generic org-presentation API
> which would initially support just beamer but which would leave open  
> the
> possibility for others to implement other slide presentation engines?
> For example I remember that someone once brought up the possibility on
> this list of exporting org to OpenOffice presentation format. And it's
> possible to create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS --  
> although I
> never see anyone doing it. There are at least some things in common
> between different slide-show engines, such as where to break from  
> slide
> to slide, slide titles, non-slide notes, etc.

This is an interesting thought, but would require someone skilled
in his area, and a lengthy design process.  LaTeX is not a bad
default for org, because it is LaTeX-centric anyway.... ?

>
> Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
> presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files with the
> help of established org mechanisms such as selective subtree
> export. E.g. using the heading title to set the column width feels
> wrong; the natural reaction is to think that that sort of metadata
> should be in a property.

OK, I hear you all pull the same string, that Org-mode files should be  
beamer presentations as they are, more or less.

Here are some ideas in that direction:

1. Don't automatically use a specific headline level to create the  
columns
    environment - at least make that configurable.

2. Make beamer export force org-export-headline-levels equal org- 
beamer-frame-level,
    so that headlines below the frame level automatically become itemize
    levels, unless modified by tags or properties.

3. Use meta data to make headlines special, instead of mixing this
    stuff into the.  I first thought this is too hard - but maybe it is
    OK when edited with column view?  Hmm, I am only half-sold on this  
- properties
    are so hard to see when you need them frequently during editing.

Thomas asked for the possibility to export a subtree as a
presentation, with *relative* levels determining functionality.  This
should be easy - when selection a subtree with `C-c @' and then  
exporting,
relative levels are already being used now, for any kind of export.

...

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi Carsten,

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Dan  wrote:
>> Also, I do agree with others that to the extent possible we want
>> presentations to emerge naturally out of 'normal' org-files with the help
>> of established org mechanisms such as selective subtree export. E.g. using
>> the heading title to set the column width feels wrong; the natural reaction
>> is to think that that sort of metadata should be in a property.
>
> OK, I hear you all pull the same string, that Org-mode files should be
> beamer presentations as they are, more or less.
>
> Here are some ideas in that direction:
>
> 1. Don't automatically use a specific headline level to create the columns
>    environment - at least make that configurable.
>
> 2. Make beamer export force org-export-headline-levels equal
>    org-beamer-frame-level, so that headlines below the frame level
>    automatically become itemize levels, unless modified by tags or
>    properties.
>
> 3. Use meta data to make headlines special, instead of mixing this stuff
>    into the. I first thought this is too hard - but maybe it is OK when
>    edited with column view? Hmm, I am only half-sold on this - properties
>    are so hard to see when you need them frequently during editing.
>
> Thomas asked for the possibility to export a subtree as a presentation, with
> *relative* levels determining functionality. This should be easy - when
> selection a subtree with `C-c @' and then exporting, relative levels are
> already being used now, for any kind of export.

As far as I understand, I perfectly agree with the explained approach, yes!

Thanks for all,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



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Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Stephan Schmitt]

Carsten Dominik wrote:
 >
 > On Nov 26, 2009, at 7:40 PM, Dan  wrote:
 >> ... using the heading title to set the column width feels
 >> wrong; the natural reaction is to think that that sort of metadata
 >> should be in a property.
 >
 > OK, I hear you all pull the same string, that Org-mode files should be
 > beamer presentations as they are, more or less.
 >
 > ...
 > 3. Use meta data to make headlines special, instead of mixing this
 >    stuff into the.  I first thought this is too hard - but maybe it is
 >    OK when edited with column view?  Hmm, I am only half-sold on this -
 > properties
 >    are so hard to see when you need them frequently during editing.
 >

Hi,

I would also prefer not to use headline content for formatting purposes.

Instead of introducing a new syntax for column widths, I'd rather store them as 
properties and provide dedicated functions to edit these in a convenient way.

Just my 2 cents, though.
Greetings,
	Stephan

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Christian Egli]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 605 bytes --]

Hi Carsten

I've been using org-mode to create a few presentations and found it to
be extremely productive. I use different levels for parts (in the past),
sections and subsections. Beyond that I just use lists. I haven't used
blocks and columns (probably because it wasn't easily possible so far).

Also I use separate org files for all presentations.

See
http://www.daisy2009.de/files/presentations/itc/egli__daisy_producer.pdf,
http://liblouis.googlecode.com/files/liblouisSlides.pdf and
http://liblouis.googlecode.com/files/liblouisSlides.org for examples

Here's the relevant expert from my .emacs


[-- Attachment #2: relevant exerpt from my .emacs --]
[-- Type: text/plain, Size: 358 bytes --]

 '(org-export-latex-classes (quote (("beamer" "\\documentclass[]{beamer}
\\usetheme{Frankfurt}
\\usepackage{multimedia}
\\usepackage[english]{babel}
\\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\\usepackage{hyperref}" ("\\section{%s}" . "\\section{%s}") ("\\subsection{%s}" . "\\subsection{%s}") ("\\begin{frame}{%s}" "\\end{frame}" "\\begin{frame}{%s}" "\\end{frame}")))))

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 1783 bytes --]


Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> 1. Don't automatically use a specific headline level to create the
> columns
>    environment - at least make that configurable.

Generally I like the idea of using the levels as an indication for
beamer. However this needs to be configurable, as I have also used parts
in the past for example.

> 2. Make beamer export force org-export-headline-levels equal org-
> beamer-frame-level,
>    so that headlines below the frame level automatically become itemize
>    levels, unless modified by tags or properties.

I don't really care about that too much (in fact I think it just
introduces confusion). I just always used lists for bullet points.

> 3. Use meta data to make headlines special, instead of mixing this
>    stuff into the.  I first thought this is too hard - but maybe it is
>    OK when edited with column view?  Hmm, I am only half-sold on this
> - properties
>    are so hard to see when you need them frequently during editing.

This sounds reasonable, as I usually create an outline of the ideas
first and from that create a presentation. Later I might reuse it for a
paper, so I don't really want it to be interspersed with layout
information.

> Thomas asked for the possibility to export a subtree as a
> presentation, with *relative* levels determining functionality.  This
> should be easy - when selection a subtree with `C-c @' and then
> exporting,
> relative levels are already being used now, for any kind of export.

I don't have a need for that as I use separate files for each
presentation.

Another thing that I tried to use was alerts (and colors) in bullet
points. I seem to remember that it didn't work. I should try again. It
appears that Eric managed to get them to work.

Thanks
Christian

[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 201 bytes --]

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Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Magnus Henoch]

Dan Davison <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> writes:

> And it's possible to create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS --
> although I never see anyone doing it.

Have a look at S5: http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/s5-intro.html

Magnus

Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Dan Davison]

Magnus Henoch <magnus.henoch@gmail.com> writes:

> Dan Davison <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> And it's possible to create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS --
>> although I never see anyone doing it.
>
> Have a look at S5: http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/s5-intro.html

Thankyou, that looks really nice. It would be great for org to be able
to target an XHTML-based slide format like this in addition to beamer,
wouldn't it? It would require some work, but the XHTML structure below
seems encouragingly straightforward. Perhaps a relatively effortless
starting point would be dividing some of the new variables controlling
beamer export into general-presentation and beamer-specific sets
(e.g. the location of the slide and slide components in a subtree; I
know, I already said this...)

I'm pasting some relevant information from the Wikipedia entry below in
case anyone more knowledgable about org (X)HTML/XOXO export has any
thoughts.

Dan

From wikipedia:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
S5 (Simple Standards-Based Slide Show System) is an XHTML-based file
format for defining slideshows. It was created by Eric Meyer as an
alternative to the browser-centric Opera Show Format. S5 is not a
presentation program, but fulfills the same purpose in combination with
a standards-compliant web browser.

The text of an S5 presentation can be stored in a single XHTML
file. This file contains several slides which are coded in the following
way.

<div class="slide">
 <h1>slide title</h1>
 <ul>
   <li>the first point</li>
   <li>the second point</li>
   <li>the third point</li>
 </ul>
 <div class="handout">
  ... additional material that appears
     on the handout
 </div>
</div>

S5 presentations can be viewed in outline and slideshow mode – Cascading
Style Sheets (CSS) are used to define different layouts for outline,
slideshow and print. Navigation controls, a dynamically generated list
of slides and accesskeys allow browsing back and forth.

A more semantic version of the S5 format is based on the XOXO
microformat and uses <li class="slide"> instead of divs for the slides,
as well as <ol class="xoxo presentation"> instead of a div for the
overall presentation.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Magnus
>
>
>
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S5 Slideschows / Presentations - was Re: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sebastian Rose]

Dan Davison <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> writes:
> Magnus Henoch <magnus.henoch@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Dan Davison <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>>
>>> And it's possible to create something like a slide-show in HTML/CSS --
>>> although I never see anyone doing it.
>>
>> Have a look at S5: http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/s5-intro.html
>
> Thankyou, that looks really nice. It would be great for org to be able
> to target an XHTML-based slide format like this in addition to beamer,
> wouldn't it? It would require some work, but the XHTML structure below
> seems encouragingly straightforward. Perhaps a relatively effortless
> starting point would be dividing some of the new variables controlling
> beamer export into general-presentation and beamer-specific sets
> (e.g. the location of the slide and slide components in a subtree; I
> know, I already said this...)
>
> I'm pasting some relevant information from the Wikipedia entry below in
> case anyone more knowledgable about org (X)HTML/XOXO export has any
> thoughts.
>
> Dan
>
>From wikipedia:
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> S5 (Simple Standards-Based Slide Show System) is an XHTML-based file
> format for defining slideshows. It was created by Eric Meyer as an
> alternative to the browser-centric Opera Show Format. S5 is not a
> presentation program, but fulfills the same purpose in combination with
> a standards-compliant web browser.
>
> The text of an S5 presentation can be stored in a single XHTML
> file. This file contains several slides which are coded in the following
> way.
>
> <div class="slide">
>  <h1>slide title</h1>
>  <ul>
>    <li>the first point</li>
>    <li>the second point</li>
>    <li>the third point</li>
>  </ul>
>  <div class="handout">
>   ... additional material that appears
>      on the handout
>  </div>
> </div>


I'd suggest, to use XSLT to achive this. It's reliable, fast and a good
thing to learn if you want to transform current export.


2.) I'd suggest to use a different thread??

  Sebastian

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Christoph Groth]

Nice idea to create LaTeX-presentations using orgmode.  Though, whenever
using beamer, I always find myself having to tweak some spaces on a
fairly low level.  I'm curious whether it will work out to create
non-trivial presentations by using orgmode only.

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line will be split at
> that location, and the second half become the frame /subtitle/.

Sometimes one might have a frame title which is too wide for one line.
Then one might want to split the title at a specific place -- and that
is done by inserting a \\ there.  Therefore, I suggest to use some other
magic string.  What about an unquoted ampersand ("&")?  This character is
already used in LaTeX to split things and its unquoted use in a
frame title is actually an error.

Christoph

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Sébastien Vauban]

Christoph Groth wrote:
> Nice idea to create LaTeX-presentations using orgmode.  Though, whenever
> using beamer, I always find myself having to tweak some spaces on a
> fairly low level.  I'm curious whether it will work out to create
> non-trivial presentations by using orgmode only.

I am sure we will make it!


>> If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line will be split at
>> that location, and the second half become the frame /subtitle/.
>
> Sometimes one might have a frame title which is too wide for one line.
> Then one might want to split the title at a specific place -- and that
> is done by inserting a \\ there.

An alternative would be for you to use \linebreak in such cases (when you
wanna break the line because it's too long).

Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban



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Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

At Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:17:21 +0100,
Carsten Dominik wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> this is in response to the discussions about beamer
> export from Org-mode.  Yesterday I had a long train ride
> during which I scanned the beamer documentation (smoking
> hot stuff!).  Then I made the attached draft
> for Org-mode support, strongly based on the stuff
> Eric Fraga has put together recently.  What is described
> below sort-of works in some experimental code here, but before
> I polish I would like comments on this outline.

Wow!  This is great Carsten.  

As you know, I have spent the past week preparing a set of lectures
for one of my courses completely in org mode using beamer.  I finished
them today (100 or so slides) and the way I set it up is working quite
well for me.  Mind you, you've added a few features that will
definitely come in useful and I am going to retrofit back into this
set of slides when your update is available.

I do like the whole setup you've defined but I have a couple of comments:

> 1.3 Columns
> ============
> Headlines one below frames (level 3 by default) can be used start
> columns on a frame.  The presence of such a headline without a
> beamer tag (see below) will create the columns environment.  The
> text in the headline is ignored.  It is helpful to write
> "columns" in this headline anyway.

I've modified *my* interpretation of level 3 headings to take the text
given on this heading as the option to the columns environment so
that, for instance,

,----
| * section
| ** a slide
| *** [t]
| **** 0.4
|      - one column
| **** 0.6
|      - another slightly wider column
`----

will generate

  ...
  \begin{columns}[t]  % note the [t]
  ...

as I found this necessary sometimes.  Although this looks a little
ugly, I am not sure if there is a better way of passing these types of
options to the columns environment?

> 1.4 A column
> =============
> Headlines below a columns environment (level 4 by default) open a
> column.  The text in the headline should be a number smaller than
> one and will be used to define the column width.

You may wish to make it clear that this will be relative to \textwidth
as currently defined at that point.

> 1.5 Block-like environments
> ============================
> Any headline can become a block-like environment by tagging it
> with a beamer tag.  For examples, `:B_block:' will trigger the
> creation of a block environment, while `:B_theorem:' will trigger
> the creation of a theorem environment.  When it makes sense, the
> headline text is used in an appropriate argument of the
> environment, if that does not make sense, it is ignored.

This is really nice!  As you know, I was using level 5 for blocks
which meant that they had to be in columns (although obviously I could
have one column of full width).  This is much less clumsy than my
approach. 

One last thing: would you like to mention support for \alert{} or does
this belong elsewhere?

Thanks again,
eric

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Gray Calhoun]

Hi Carsten and all,

Beamer export sounds fantastic.  I've been using org mode for this sort 
of thing a lot over the last year--all of my lecture notes are typed up 
as an org file, and I used org mode to draft slides for a presentation 
over the summer, so an automated process would be helpful.

But, I'm not sure that it makes sense to hardcode the frames as a level 
2 headline (or any level headline); I find it easier to define a slide 
to be any headline that has no subheadings, regardless of its 
depth---the ability to outline the structure of a presentation as 
appropriate and then fill in the details (ie the slides) later is (imho) 
the reason to use org-mode for this sort of task in the first place. 
Columns, etc., could then be handled by using properties of the last 
headline, or as a special list.

This approach might also make it easier to export the same file to other 
formats (i.e. the existing html format).  I imagine that this would be a 
little harder to program, though, and is just my two cents.

--Gray

Carsten Dominik wrote:
(snipped)
> 1.2 Frames
> ===========
> Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
> org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
> the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
> no title.  If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line
> will be split at that location, and the second half become the
> frame /subtitle/.
(snipped)

-- 
Gray Calhoun

Assistant Professor of Economics, Iowa State University
http://www.econ.iastate.edu/~gcalhoun/

467 Heady Hall
Ames, IA 50011
Phone: (515) 294-6271
Fax:   (515) 294-0221

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Gray,

thanks for chiming in, this was a very important piece of the puzzle.   
I had already realized that I should give up having fixed levels for  
columns, but I had still panned fixed levels for frames.  Now after  
your post I realize that this can be useful, but is not required,  
which means it should be optional.

Thanks!

- Carsten

On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Gray Calhoun wrote:

> Hi Carsten and all,
>
> Beamer export sounds fantastic.  I've been using org mode for this  
> sort of thing a lot over the last year--all of my lecture notes are  
> typed up as an org file, and I used org mode to draft slides for a  
> presentation over the summer, so an automated process would be  
> helpful.
>
> But, I'm not sure that it makes sense to hardcode the frames as a  
> level 2 headline (or any level headline); I find it easier to define  
> a slide to be any headline that has no subheadings, regardless of  
> its depth---the ability to outline the structure of a presentation  
> as appropriate and then fill in the details (ie the slides) later is  
> (imho) the reason to use org-mode for this sort of task in the first  
> place. Columns, etc., could then be handled by using properties of  
> the last headline, or as a special list.
>
> This approach might also make it easier to export the same file to  
> other formats (i.e. the existing html format).  I imagine that this  
> would be a little harder to program, though, and is just my two cents.
>
> --Gray
>
> Carsten Dominik wrote:
> (snipped)
>> 1.2 Frames
>> ===========
>> Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
>> org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
>> the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
>> no title.  If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line
>> will be split at that location, and the second half become the
>> frame /subtitle/.
> (snipped)
>
> -- 
> Gray Calhoun
>
> Assistant Professor of Economics, Iowa State University
> http://www.econ.iastate.edu/~gcalhoun/
>
> 467 Heady Hall
> Ames, IA 50011
> Phone: (515) 294-6271
> Fax:   (515) 294-0221

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Gray Calhoun]

An optional setting sounds great.  I can't wait to see how it turns out.
--Gray

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Hi Gray,
>
> thanks for chiming in, this was a very important piece of the puzzle.  
> I had already realized that I should give up having fixed levels for 
> columns, but I had still panned fixed levels for frames.  Now after 
> your post I realize that this can be useful, but is not required, 
> which means it should be optional.
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Carsten
>
> On Nov 29, 2009, at 7:03 PM, Gray Calhoun wrote:
>
>> Hi Carsten and all,
>>
>> Beamer export sounds fantastic.  I've been using org mode for this 
>> sort of thing a lot over the last year--all of my lecture notes are 
>> typed up as an org file, and I used org mode to draft slides for a 
>> presentation over the summer, so an automated process would be helpful.
>>
>> But, I'm not sure that it makes sense to hardcode the frames as a 
>> level 2 headline (or any level headline); I find it easier to define 
>> a slide to be any headline that has no subheadings, regardless of its 
>> depth---the ability to outline the structure of a presentation as 
>> appropriate and then fill in the details (ie the slides) later is 
>> (imho) the reason to use org-mode for this sort of task in the first 
>> place. Columns, etc., could then be handled by using properties of 
>> the last headline, or as a special list.
>>
>> This approach might also make it easier to export the same file to 
>> other formats (i.e. the existing html format).  I imagine that this 
>> would be a little harder to program, though, and is just my two cents.
>>
>> --Gray
>>
>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> (snipped)
>>> 1.2 Frames
>>> ===========
>>> Level 2 headline (or the level configured in
>>> org-beamer-frame-level) become frames.  The headline text become
>>> the frame title, but if no headline text is given, the frame gets
>>> no title.  If the frame title contains the string "\\", the line
>>> will be split at that location, and the second half become the
>>> frame /subtitle/.
>> (snipped)
>>
>> -- 
>> Gray Calhoun
>>
>> Assistant Professor of Economics, Iowa State University
>> http://www.econ.iastate.edu/~gcalhoun/
>>
>> 467 Heady Hall
>> Ames, IA 50011
>> Phone: (515) 294-6271
>> Fax:   (515) 294-0221
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>

Strange bug, request for more info

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi everyone,

John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.

The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
the other window shows a completely different location.
The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
this problem.

So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as info
as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
what is your setup etc etc.

Thanks a lot.

- Carsten

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Adam Spiers]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 09:37:37AM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
> been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
> if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
> that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
> report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.
> 
> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
> the other window shows a completely different location.
> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
> this problem.
> 
> So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as info
> as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
> what is your setup etc etc.

I haven't seen it, but could you perhaps make use of edebug
(conditional) breakpoints to track it down, or edebug evaluation
lists, or even `edebug-set-global-break-condition' ?

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Hugo Schmitt]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1875 bytes --]

Adam,
i'm happy and sad with you last message.
How come i never heard about edebug? I read every elisp tutorial out there
(should have read the manual!)
I've been putting (read-string "debug msg") on my code for the past two
years for tracing the execution...

This totally rocks! Thanks a lot!

-Hugo

On Jan 31, 2008 7:32 AM, Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 09:37:37AM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
> > been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
> > if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
> > that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
> > report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.
> >
> > The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
> > the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
> > John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
> > the other window shows a completely different location.
> > The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
> > and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
> > fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
> > this problem.
> >
> > So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as info
> > as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
> > what is your setup etc etc.
>
> I haven't seen it, but could you perhaps make use of edebug
> (conditional) breakpoints to track it down, or edebug evaluation
> lists, or even `edebug-set-global-break-condition' ?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 2492 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Adam Spiers]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 07:59:01AM -0300, Hugo Schmitt wrote:
> Adam,
> i'm happy and sad with you last message.
> How come i never heard about edebug? I read every elisp tutorial out there
> (should have read the manual!)
> I've been putting (read-string "debug msg") on my code for the past two
> years for tracing the execution...
> 
> This totally rocks! Thanks a lot!

Delighted to be of use :-)  C-u C-M-x is *so* useful ...

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Nick Dokos]

Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:

> Delighted to be of use :-)  C-u C-M-x is *so* useful ...

I am perhaps being dense but what does this do? AFAICT, C-M-x
is undefined.

Version info:
(GNU Emacs 22.1.50.2 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.10.11) of 2007-11-23)

Thanks,
Nick

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Adam Spiers]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 11:19:00AM -0500, Nick Dokos wrote:
> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
> 
> > Delighted to be of use :-)  C-u C-M-x is *so* useful ...
> 
> I am perhaps being dense but what does this do? AFAICT, C-M-x
> is undefined.

Isn't it bound to `eval-defun' by default?

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Nick Dokos]

Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:

> > > Delighted to be of use :-)  C-u C-M-x is *so* useful ...
> > 
> > I am perhaps being dense but what does this do? AFAICT, C-M-x
> > is undefined.
> 
> Isn't it bound to `eval-defun' by default?
> 

Not here, but thanks for the pointer to `eval-defun': it may come in
useful for edebug, but it will certainly be useful when I want to
re-evaluate `defvar' forms: I've been doing it manually and it's been
driving me up the wall, but I hadn't spent any time to fix the problem.

Nick

Re: BUG: org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr without requiring cl

[Nick Dokos]

Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:

> org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr but does not require the cl
> package; this results in
> 
>   *ERROR*: Symbol's function definition is void: caddr
> 
> when bzg/org-annotate-helper is invoked.
> 
> 

Isn't org-annotation-helper.el obsolete? I thought org-protocol.el has
supplanted it completely, in which case it might be better to just
delete it from the tree, instead of fixing it (or perhaps move it
to a deprecated area) - that would also help in not confusing new
users.

Thanks,
Nick

Re: BUG: org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr without requiring cl

[Sebastian Rose]

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:
> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>
>> org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr but does not require the cl
>> package; this results in
>> 
>>   *ERROR*: Symbol's function definition is void: caddr
>> 
>> when bzg/org-annotate-helper is invoked.
>> 
>> 
>
> Isn't org-annotation-helper.el obsolete? I thought org-protocol.el has
> supplanted it completely, in which case it might be better to just
> delete it from the tree, instead of fixing it (or perhaps move it
> to a deprecated area) - that would also help in not confusing new
> users.


Yes, if everyone is OK with that removal. The functionality of
org-annotation-helper is re-implemented in
org-protocol. org-annotation-helper.el was one of the parents
actually. Some code is still in there. That's why it's authors are
mentioned their, too.

Anyway, org-annotation-helper.el might still be in use somewhere.



  Sebastian

Re: BUG: org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr without requiring cl

[Carsten Dominik]

On Nov 9, 2009, at 10:10 PM, Sebastian Rose wrote:

> Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:
>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr but does not require the cl
>>> package; this results in
>>>
>>>  *ERROR*: Symbol's function definition is void: caddr
>>>
>>> when bzg/org-annotate-helper is invoked.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Isn't org-annotation-helper.el obsolete? I thought org-protocol.el  
>> has
>> supplanted it completely, in which case it might be better to just
>> delete it from the tree, instead of fixing it (or perhaps move it
>> to a deprecated area) - that would also help in not confusing new
>> users.
>
>
> Yes, if everyone is OK with that removal. The functionality of
> org-annotation-helper is re-implemented in
> org-protocol. org-annotation-helper.el was one of the parents
> actually. Some code is still in there. That's why it's authors are
> mentioned their, too.
>
> Anyway, org-annotation-helper.el might still be in use somewhere.

I have no objection to remove it, if the author agrees.
Can anyone try to figure that out?

Thanks

- Carsten

>
>
>
>  Sebastian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: BUG: org-annotation-helper.el uses caddr without requiring cl

[Sebastian Rose]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>> Isn't org-annotation-helper.el obsolete? I thought org-protocol.el has
>>> supplanted it completely, in which case it might be better to just
>>> delete it from the tree, instead of fixing it (or perhaps move it
>>> to a deprecated area) - that would also help in not confusing new
>>> users.
>>
>>
>> Yes, if everyone is OK with that removal. The functionality of
>> org-annotation-helper is re-implemented in
>> org-protocol. org-annotation-helper.el was one of the parents
>> actually. Some code is still in there. That's why it's authors are
>> mentioned their, too.
>>
>> Anyway, org-annotation-helper.el might still be in use somewhere.
>
> I have no objection to remove it, if the author agrees.
> Can anyone try to figure that out?



Yes, I will do that.

How about org-browser-url.el then? It's in org-protocol.el, too.
All authors of the too files are mentioned in org-protocol.el.


  Sebastian

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Nick Dokos]

Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
> > In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a presentation
> > they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. If
> > org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
> > would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote when
> > exporting to beamer.
> 
> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of footnotes
> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
> 
I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the handout
includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does that,
although they *should* :-) ).

In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities like
that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough cause.

> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming "X is
> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how the
> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides and
> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the results
> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL was
> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
> 
> 

How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a footnote in
all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
and pnotes end up in the notes.

Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this makes it
sound, but who knows?[1]

Thanks,
Nick

[1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Daniel Martins]

\pnote could be an option

Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes

* section
** subsection
*** frame
etc


************** notes

(I don't know how many *'s are needed)

maybe we can set a number / variable

like

org-beamer-frame-level

we could create

org-beamer-notes-level

Daniel


2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>> > In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a presentation
>> > they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in some cases. If
>> > org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from now someone
>> > would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard footnote when
>> > exporting to beamer.
>>
>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of footnotes
>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>
> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the handout
> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does that,
> although they *should* :-) ).
>
> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities like
> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough cause.
>
>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming "X is
>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how the
>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides and
>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the results
>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL was
>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>
>>
>
> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a footnote in
> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>
> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this makes it
> sound, but who knows?[1]
>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Thomas S. Dye]

Hi Daniel,

On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:

> \pnote could be an option
>
> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
>
> * section
> ** subsection
> *** frame
> etc
>
>
> ************** notes
>
> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
>
> maybe we can set a number / variable
>
> like
>
> org-beamer-frame-level
>
> we could create
>
> org-beamer-notes-level
>
> Daniel
>
>
> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante  
>>> Moreira wrote:
>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a  
>>>> presentation
>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in  
>>>> some cases. If
>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from  
>>>> now someone
>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard  
>>>> footnote when
>>>> exporting to beamer.
>>>
>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of  
>>> footnotes
>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>>
>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the  
>> handout
>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does  
>> that,
>> although they *should* :-) ).
>>
>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities  
>> like
>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough  
>> cause.
>>
>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming "X is
>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how the
>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides  
>>> and
>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the  
>>> results
>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL  
>>> was
>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a  
>> footnote in
>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>>
>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this  
>> makes it
>> sound, but who knows?[1]
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nick
>>
>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>>

FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer  
and LaTeX very well.

In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken  
presentation of a LaTeX article.

Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning  
commands, with some themes that automatically display down to  
subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level  
structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their  
(often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the  
photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in the  
LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes also  
map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.

This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my perspective  
maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below the  
last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems natural  
to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have big  
chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer  
presentation.

I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of  
implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode Lisp  
code owing to my own illiteracy.

All the best,
Tom

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Darlan Cavalcante Moreira]

I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note command is
used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in the next
"notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note commands in
the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a headline below the
frame headline seems to be a good approach.

Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other formats one
could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already available feature of
not exporting headlines with a given tag.

- Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
"Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Daniel,
> 
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
> 
> > \pnote could be an option
> >
> > Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
> >
> > * section
> > ** subsection
> > *** frame
> > etc
> >
> >
> > ************** notes
> >
> > (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
> >
> > maybe we can set a number / variable
> >
> > like
> >
> > org-beamer-frame-level
> >
> > we could create
> >
> > org-beamer-notes-level
> >
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
> >> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante  
> >>> Moreira wrote:
> >>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a  
> >>>> presentation
> >>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in  
> >>>> some cases. If
> >>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from  
> >>>> now someone
> >>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard  
> >>>> footnote when
> >>>> exporting to beamer.
> >>>
> >>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of  
> >>> footnotes
> >>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for quotations,
> >>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
> >>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
> >>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
> >>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
> >>>
> >> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the  
> >> handout
> >> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does  
> >> that,
> >> although they *should* :-) ).
> >>
> >> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level lists,
> >> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities  
> >> like
> >> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough  
> >> cause.
> >>
> >>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming "X is
> >>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how the
> >>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but you
> >>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
> >>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides  
> >>> and
> >>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the  
> >>> results
> >>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL  
> >>> was
> >>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of footnote,
> >> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a  
> >> footnote in
> >> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the frame
> >> and pnotes end up in the notes.
> >>
> >> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this  
> >> makes it
> >> sound, but who knows?[1]
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Nick
> >>
> >> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
> >>
> 
> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer  
> and LaTeX very well.
> 
> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken  
> presentation of a LaTeX article.
> 
> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning  
> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to  
> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level  
> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their  
> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the  
> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in the  
> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes also  
> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
> 
> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my perspective  
> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below the  
> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems natural  
> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have big  
> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer  
> presentation.
> 
> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of  
> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode Lisp  
> code owing to my own illiteracy.
> 
> All the best,
> Tom
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi everyone,

after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
think that this is, in the end, the right solution.

Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with property  
BNOTE
or so as the sources of notes?

Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value "note"
in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy to  
turn
on with the special editing code we already have, would automatically
be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.

Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.

If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.

Input is again welcome!

- Carsten

On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:

>
> I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note  
> command is
> used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in  
> the next
> "notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note  
> commands in
> the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a  
> headline below the
> frame headline seems to be a good approach.
>
> Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other  
> formats one
> could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already  
> available feature of
> not exporting headlines with a given tag.
>
> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>
> At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Daniel,
>>
>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
>>
>>> \pnote could be an option
>>>
>>> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
>>>
>>> * section
>>> ** subsection
>>> *** frame
>>> etc
>>>
>>>
>>> ************** notes
>>>
>>> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
>>>
>>> maybe we can set a number / variable
>>>
>>> like
>>>
>>> org-beamer-frame-level
>>>
>>> we could create
>>>
>>> org-beamer-notes-level
>>>
>>> Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
>>>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
>>>>> Moreira wrote:
>>>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a
>>>>>> presentation
>>>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in
>>>>>> some cases. If
>>>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from
>>>>>> now someone
>>>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard
>>>>>> footnote when
>>>>>> exporting to beamer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
>>>>> footnotes
>>>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for  
>>>>> quotations,
>>>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
>>>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
>>>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>>>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>>>>
>>>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
>>>> handout
>>>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does
>>>> that,
>>>> although they *should* :-) ).
>>>>
>>>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level  
>>>> lists,
>>>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities
>>>> like
>>>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough
>>>> cause.
>>>>
>>>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming "X is
>>>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how the
>>>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but  
>>>>> you
>>>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>>>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides
>>>>> and
>>>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
>>>>> results
>>>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL
>>>>> was
>>>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of  
>>>> footnote,
>>>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a
>>>> footnote in
>>>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the  
>>>> frame
>>>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>>>>
>>>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
>>>> makes it
>>>> sound, but who knows?[1]
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>>>>
>>
>> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer
>> and LaTeX very well.
>>
>> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
>> presentation of a LaTeX article.
>>
>> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning
>> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
>> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
>> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
>> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
>> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in the
>> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes  
>> also
>> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
>>
>> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my  
>> perspective
>> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below the
>> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems natural
>> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have big
>> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer
>> presentation.
>>
>> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of
>> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode Lisp
>> code owing to my own illiteracy.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Russell Adams]

Carsten,

I've seen properties and sub-headlines proposed, but what about
something like this, using quoting style to separate the notes from
the slide?

** Slide

 - Slide content
 - Slide content

#+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE
Here are the class notes for this slide...

#+END_BEAMER_NOTE

Maybe I'm coming in on the debate late...

Thanks.


On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:07:29PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
> think that this is, in the end, the right solution.
>
> Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with property  
> BNOTE
> or so as the sources of notes?
>
> Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value "note"
> in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy to  
> turn
> on with the special editing code we already have, would automatically
> be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.
>
> Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
> such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.
>
> If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
> node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
> with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
> part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.
>
> Input is again welcome!
>
> - Carsten
>
> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>
>>
>> I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note  
>> command is
>> used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in the 
>> next
>> "notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note  
>> commands in
>> the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a headline 
>> below the
>> frame headline seems to be a good approach.
>>
>> Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other  
>> formats one
>> could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already available 
>> feature of
>> not exporting headlines with a given tag.
>>
>> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>>
>> At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
>> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>
>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
>>>
>>>> \pnote could be an option
>>>>
>>>> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
>>>>
>>>> * section
>>>> ** subsection
>>>> *** frame
>>>> etc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ************** notes
>>>>
>>>> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
>>>>
>>>> maybe we can set a number / variable
>>>>
>>>> like
>>>>
>>>> org-beamer-frame-level
>>>>
>>>> we could create
>>>>
>>>> org-beamer-notes-level
>>>>
>>>> Daniel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
>>>>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
>>>>>> Moreira wrote:
>>>>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be in a
>>>>>>> presentation
>>>>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in
>>>>>>> some cases. If
>>>>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from
>>>>>>> now someone
>>>>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a standard
>>>>>>> footnote when
>>>>>>> exporting to beamer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
>>>>>> footnotes
>>>>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for  
>>>>>> quotations,
>>>>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not used
>>>>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
>>>>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>>>>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
>>>>> handout
>>>>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does
>>>>> that,
>>>>> although they *should* :-) ).
>>>>>
>>>>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level  
>>>>> lists,
>>>>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that generalities
>>>>> like
>>>>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough
>>>>> cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming "X is
>>>>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how the
>>>>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but 
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>>>>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the slides
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
>>>>>> results
>>>>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the URL
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of  
>>>>> footnote,
>>>>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a
>>>>> footnote in
>>>>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the  
>>>>> frame
>>>>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
>>>>> makes it
>>>>> sound, but who knows?[1]
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Nick
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>>>>>
>>>
>>> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between beamer
>>> and LaTeX very well.
>>>
>>> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
>>> presentation of a LaTeX article.
>>>
>>> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning
>>> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
>>> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
>>> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
>>> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
>>> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in the
>>> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes  
>>> also
>>> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
>>>
>>> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my  
>>> perspective
>>> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below the
>>> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems natural
>>> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have big
>>> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer
>>> presentation.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of
>>> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode Lisp
>>> code owing to my own illiteracy.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>


------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jan 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, Russell Adams wrote:

> Carsten,
>
> I've seen properties and sub-headlines proposed, but what about
> something like this, using quoting style to separate the notes from
> the slide?
>
> ** Slide
>
> - Slide content
> - Slide content
>
> #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE
> Here are the class notes for this slide...
>
> #+END_BEAMER_NOTE


That is a possibility, but a lot of hassle to type for a short note.
Admittedly, properties are just as messy.

Maybe it should be

* BNOTE Here are the class notes for this slide...
   more stuff....

- Carsten
>
> Maybe I'm coming in on the debate late...
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:07:29PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
>> think that this is, in the end, the right solution.
>>
>> Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with property
>> BNOTE
>> or so as the sources of notes?
>>
>> Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value "note"
>> in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy to
>> turn
>> on with the special editing code we already have, would automatically
>> be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.
>>
>> Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
>> such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.
>>
>> If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
>> node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
>> with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
>> part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.
>>
>> Input is again welcome!
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note
>>> command is
>>> used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in  
>>> the
>>> next
>>> "notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note
>>> commands in
>>> the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a  
>>> headline
>>> below the
>>> frame headline seems to be a good approach.
>>>
>>> Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other
>>> formats one
>>> could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already  
>>> available
>>> feature of
>>> not exporting headlines with a given tag.
>>>
>>> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>>>
>>> At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
>>> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> \pnote could be an option
>>>>>
>>>>> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
>>>>>
>>>>> * section
>>>>> ** subsection
>>>>> *** frame
>>>>> etc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ************** notes
>>>>>
>>>>> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
>>>>>
>>>>> maybe we can set a number / variable
>>>>>
>>>>> like
>>>>>
>>>>> org-beamer-frame-level
>>>>>
>>>>> we could create
>>>>>
>>>>> org-beamer-notes-level
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
>>>>>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
>>>>>>> Moreira wrote:
>>>>>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be  
>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>> presentation
>>>>>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in
>>>>>>>> some cases. If
>>>>>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from
>>>>>>>> now someone
>>>>>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a  
>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>> footnote when
>>>>>>>> exporting to beamer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
>>>>>>> footnotes
>>>>>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for
>>>>>>> quotations,
>>>>>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not  
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
>>>>>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>>>>>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
>>>>>> handout
>>>>>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does
>>>>>> that,
>>>>>> although they *should* :-) ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level
>>>>>> lists,
>>>>>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that  
>>>>>> generalities
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough
>>>>>> cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming  
>>>>>>> "X is
>>>>>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how  
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>>>>>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the  
>>>>>>> slides
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the  
>>>>>>> URL
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of
>>>>>> footnote,
>>>>>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a
>>>>>> footnote in
>>>>>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the
>>>>>> frame
>>>>>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
>>>>>> makes it
>>>>>> sound, but who knows?[1]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between  
>>>> beamer
>>>> and LaTeX very well.
>>>>
>>>> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
>>>> presentation of a LaTeX article.
>>>>
>>>> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning
>>>> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
>>>> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
>>>> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
>>>> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
>>>> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in  
>>>> the
>>>> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes
>>>> also
>>>> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
>>>>
>>>> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my
>>>> perspective
>>>> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below  
>>>> the
>>>> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems  
>>>> natural
>>>> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have  
>>>> big
>>>> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer
>>>> presentation.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of
>>>> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode  
>>>> Lisp
>>>> code owing to my own illiteracy.
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
>
> PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/
>
> Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Darlan Cavalcante Moreira]

If a B_note tag is used in a headline for notes, it has the advantage that it
will be easier to see all the notes in the document (slides with notes). Also,
it would be easier to customize if the notes should be exported for other
formats other then beamer (since the user could simple exclude the B_note tag).

Regarding the headline itself, I think it would be better to ignore it. AFAIK it
is not possible to set a title for a note slide and using the headline as the
first note would limit what could be put in the first note.

On the other hand, if #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE ... #+END_BEAMER_NOTE is used instead
of a headline then org could advertise the use of yasnippets in the
documentation and maybe also provide a snippet for this. Therefore, writing the
notes environment wouldn't be much of a problem, but a way of avoiding exporting
beamer notes to other formats would have to be implemented.

- Darlan Cavalcante Moreira

At Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:07:10 +0100,
Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Jan 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, Russell Adams wrote:
> 
> > Carsten,
> >
> > I've seen properties and sub-headlines proposed, but what about
> > something like this, using quoting style to separate the notes from
> > the slide?
> >
> > ** Slide
> >
> > - Slide content
> > - Slide content
> >
> > #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE
> > Here are the class notes for this slide...
> >
> > #+END_BEAMER_NOTE
> 
> 
> That is a possibility, but a lot of hassle to type for a short note.
> Admittedly, properties are just as messy.
> 
> Maybe it should be
> 
> * BNOTE Here are the class notes for this slide...
>    more stuff....
> 
> - Carsten
> >
> > Maybe I'm coming in on the debate late...
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:07:29PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
> >> think that this is, in the end, the right solution.
> >>
> >> Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with property
> >> BNOTE
> >> or so as the sources of notes?
> >>
> >> Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value "note"
> >> in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy to
> >> turn
> >> on with the special editing code we already have, would automatically
> >> be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.
> >>
> >> Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
> >> such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.
> >>
> >> If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
> >> node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
> >> with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
> >> part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.
> >>
> >> Input is again welcome!
> >>
> >> - Carsten
> >>
> >> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the \note
> >>> command is
> >>> used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in  
> >>> the
> >>> next
> >>> "notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note
> >>> commands in
> >>> the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a  
> >>> headline
> >>> below the
> >>> frame headline seems to be a good approach.
> >>>
> >>> Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other
> >>> formats one
> >>> could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already  
> >>> available
> >>> feature of
> >>> not exporting headlines with a given tag.
> >>>
> >>> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
> >>>
> >>> At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
> >>> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Daniel,
> >>>>
> >>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> \pnote could be an option
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
> >>>>>
> >>>>> * section
> >>>>> ** subsection
> >>>>> *** frame
> >>>>> etc
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ************** notes
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> maybe we can set a number / variable
> >>>>>
> >>>>> like
> >>>>>
> >>>>> org-beamer-frame-level
> >>>>>
> >>>>> we could create
> >>>>>
> >>>>> org-beamer-notes-level
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Daniel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
> >>>>>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
> >>>>>>> Moreira wrote:
> >>>>>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be  
> >>>>>>>> in a
> >>>>>>>> presentation
> >>>>>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful in
> >>>>>>>> some cases. If
> >>>>>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months from
> >>>>>>>> now someone
> >>>>>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a  
> >>>>>>>> standard
> >>>>>>>> footnote when
> >>>>>>>> exporting to beamer.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
> >>>>>>> footnotes
> >>>>>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for
> >>>>>>> quotations,
> >>>>>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not  
> >>>>>>> used
> >>>>>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper and/or
> >>>>>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
> >>>>>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
> >>>>>> handout
> >>>>>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody does
> >>>>>> that,
> >>>>>> although they *should* :-) ).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level
> >>>>>> lists,
> >>>>>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that  
> >>>>>> generalities
> >>>>>> like
> >>>>>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good enough
> >>>>>> cause.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming  
> >>>>>>> "X is
> >>>>>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how  
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results, but
> >>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
> >>>>>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the  
> >>>>>>> slides
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
> >>>>>>> results
> >>>>>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the  
> >>>>>>> URL
> >>>>>>> was
> >>>>>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of
> >>>>>> footnote,
> >>>>>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a
> >>>>>> footnote in
> >>>>>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the
> >>>>>> frame
> >>>>>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
> >>>>>> makes it
> >>>>>> sound, but who knows?[1]
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>> Nick
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between  
> >>>> beamer
> >>>> and LaTeX very well.
> >>>>
> >>>> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
> >>>> presentation of a LaTeX article.
> >>>>
> >>>> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX sectioning
> >>>> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
> >>>> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
> >>>> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
> >>>> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
> >>>> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in  
> >>>> the
> >>>> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes
> >>>> also
> >>>> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
> >>>>
> >>>> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my
> >>>> perspective
> >>>> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below  
> >>>> the
> >>>> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems  
> >>>> natural
> >>>> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have  
> >>>> big
> >>>> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a beamer
> >>>> presentation.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of view of
> >>>> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode  
> >>>> Lisp
> >>>> code owing to my own illiteracy.
> >>>>
> >>>> All the best,
> >>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> >>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >>
> >> - Carsten
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
> >
> > PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/
> >
> > Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> 
> - Carsten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jan 4, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:

>
> If a B_note tag is used in a headline for notes, it has the  
> advantage that it
> will be easier to see all the notes in the document (slides with  
> notes). Also,
> it would be easier to customize if the notes should be exported for  
> other
> formats other then beamer (since the user could simple exclude the  
> B_note tag).
>
> Regarding the headline itself, I think it would be better to ignore  
> it. AFAIK it
> is not possible to set a title for a note slide and using the  
> headline as the
> first note would limit what could be put in the first note.


What I meant as an alternative would be to treat the headline as if it  
would be part of the normal text - which would make it easier to make  
simple, single-line notes.

So

    *** this is a note  :B_note:
	with more text


would actually translate to

  \note{This is a note
   with more text}

>
> On the other hand, if #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE ... #+END_BEAMER_NOTE is  
> used instead
> of a headline then org could advertise the use of yasnippets in the
> documentation and maybe also provide a snippet for this. Therefore,  
> writing the
> notes environment wouldn't be much of a problem, but a way of  
> avoiding exporting
> beamer notes to other formats would have to be implemented.


That would be simple.  Beamer support hooks into ORg in many places,  
and we could simple use one of those hooks to remove these for  
everything that is not bermer export.

But what would be the advantage of using the #+BEGIN.... construct?
Maybe that you could define it in the middle of the plain list....

- Carsten

>
> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>
> At Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:07:10 +0100,
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, Russell Adams wrote:
>>
>>> Carsten,
>>>
>>> I've seen properties and sub-headlines proposed, but what about
>>> something like this, using quoting style to separate the notes from
>>> the slide?
>>>
>>> ** Slide
>>>
>>> - Slide content
>>> - Slide content
>>>
>>> #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE
>>> Here are the class notes for this slide...
>>>
>>> #+END_BEAMER_NOTE
>>
>>
>> That is a possibility, but a lot of hassle to type for a short note.
>> Admittedly, properties are just as messy.
>>
>> Maybe it should be
>>
>> * BNOTE Here are the class notes for this slide...
>>   more stuff....
>>
>> - Carsten
>>>
>>> Maybe I'm coming in on the debate late...
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:07:29PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
>>>> think that this is, in the end, the right solution.
>>>>
>>>> Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with  
>>>> property
>>>> BNOTE
>>>> or so as the sources of notes?
>>>>
>>>> Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value "note"
>>>> in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy  
>>>> to
>>>> turn
>>>> on with the special editing code we already have, would  
>>>> automatically
>>>> be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.
>>>>
>>>> Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
>>>> such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.
>>>>
>>>> If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
>>>> node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
>>>> with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
>>>> part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.
>>>>
>>>> Input is again welcome!
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the  
>>>>> \note
>>>>> command is
>>>>> used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in
>>>>> the
>>>>> next
>>>>> "notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note
>>>>> commands in
>>>>> the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a
>>>>> headline
>>>>> below the
>>>>> frame headline seems to be a good approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other
>>>>> formats one
>>>>> could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already
>>>>> available
>>>>> feature of
>>>>> not exporting headlines with a given tag.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>>>>>
>>>>> At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
>>>>> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> \pnote could be an option
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * section
>>>>>>> ** subsection
>>>>>>> *** frame
>>>>>>> etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ************** notes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> maybe we can set a number / variable
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> org-beamer-frame-level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we could create
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> org-beamer-notes-level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
>>>>>>>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
>>>>>>>>> Moreira wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>> presentation
>>>>>>>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful  
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> some cases. If
>>>>>>>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months  
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> now someone
>>>>>>>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a
>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>> footnote when
>>>>>>>>>> exporting to beamer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
>>>>>>>>> footnotes
>>>>>>>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for
>>>>>>>>> quotations,
>>>>>>>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper  
>>>>>>>>> and/or
>>>>>>>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>>>>>>>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
>>>>>>>> handout
>>>>>>>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody  
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>> although they *should* :-) ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level
>>>>>>>> lists,
>>>>>>>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that
>>>>>>>> generalities
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good  
>>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>>> cause.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming
>>>>>>>>> "X is
>>>>>>>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results,  
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>>>>>>>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the
>>>>>>>>> slides
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the
>>>>>>>>> URL
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of
>>>>>>>> footnote,
>>>>>>>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a
>>>>>>>> footnote in
>>>>>>>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the
>>>>>>>> frame
>>>>>>>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
>>>>>>>> makes it
>>>>>>>> sound, but who knows?[1]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between
>>>>>> beamer
>>>>>> and LaTeX very well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
>>>>>> presentation of a LaTeX article.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX  
>>>>>> sectioning
>>>>>> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
>>>>>> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
>>>>>> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
>>>>>> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
>>>>>> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my
>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems
>>>>>> natural
>>>>>> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have
>>>>>> big
>>>>>> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a  
>>>>>> beamer
>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of  
>>>>>> view of
>>>>>> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode
>>>>>> Lisp
>>>>>> code owing to my own illiteracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
>>>
>>> PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/
>>>
>>> Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi everyone,

OK, I have now implemented notes.  Notes are generated from outline
nodes that have either a BEAMER_env property with value "note" or
"noteNH", or the corresponding tag "B_note" or "B_noteNH" (yes, for
this specific case, the tag is enough, to keep things more compact).

You can (in org-beamer-mode) select these with `C-c C-b n' and `C-c C- 
b N',
respectively.  With "note", the headline of the node will be
(part of) the note.  With "noteNH", the headline will be ignored
and only the node content will become the beamer note.

I hope this does the trick for most applications.

- Carsten



On Jan 4, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:

>
> If a B_note tag is used in a headline for notes, it has the  
> advantage that it
> will be easier to see all the notes in the document (slides with  
> notes). Also,
> it would be easier to customize if the notes should be exported for  
> other
> formats other then beamer (since the user could simple exclude the  
> B_note tag).
>
> Regarding the headline itself, I think it would be better to ignore  
> it. AFAIK it
> is not possible to set a title for a note slide and using the  
> headline as the
> first note would limit what could be put in the first note.
>
> On the other hand, if #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE ... #+END_BEAMER_NOTE is  
> used instead
> of a headline then org could advertise the use of yasnippets in the
> documentation and maybe also provide a snippet for this. Therefore,  
> writing the
> notes environment wouldn't be much of a problem, but a way of  
> avoiding exporting
> beamer notes to other formats would have to be implemented.
>
> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>
> At Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:07:10 +0100,
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, Russell Adams wrote:
>>
>>> Carsten,
>>>
>>> I've seen properties and sub-headlines proposed, but what about
>>> something like this, using quoting style to separate the notes from
>>> the slide?
>>>
>>> ** Slide
>>>
>>> - Slide content
>>> - Slide content
>>>
>>> #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE
>>> Here are the class notes for this slide...
>>>
>>> #+END_BEAMER_NOTE
>>
>>
>> That is a possibility, but a lot of hassle to type for a short note.
>> Admittedly, properties are just as messy.
>>
>> Maybe it should be
>>
>> * BNOTE Here are the class notes for this slide...
>>   more stuff....
>>
>> - Carsten
>>>
>>> Maybe I'm coming in on the debate late...
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:07:29PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
>>>> think that this is, in the end, the right solution.
>>>>
>>>> Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with  
>>>> property
>>>> BNOTE
>>>> or so as the sources of notes?
>>>>
>>>> Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value "note"
>>>> in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy  
>>>> to
>>>> turn
>>>> on with the special editing code we already have, would  
>>>> automatically
>>>> be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.
>>>>
>>>> Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
>>>> such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.
>>>>
>>>> If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
>>>> node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
>>>> with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
>>>> part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.
>>>>
>>>> Input is again welcome!
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the  
>>>>> \note
>>>>> command is
>>>>> used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in
>>>>> the
>>>>> next
>>>>> "notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note
>>>>> commands in
>>>>> the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a
>>>>> headline
>>>>> below the
>>>>> frame headline seems to be a good approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other
>>>>> formats one
>>>>> could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already
>>>>> available
>>>>> feature of
>>>>> not exporting headlines with a given tag.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>>>>>
>>>>> At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
>>>>> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> \pnote could be an option
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * section
>>>>>>> ** subsection
>>>>>>> *** frame
>>>>>>> etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ************** notes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> maybe we can set a number / variable
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> org-beamer-frame-level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we could create
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> org-beamer-notes-level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
>>>>>>>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
>>>>>>>>> Moreira wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>> presentation
>>>>>>>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful  
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> some cases. If
>>>>>>>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months  
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> now someone
>>>>>>>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a
>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>> footnote when
>>>>>>>>>> exporting to beamer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
>>>>>>>>> footnotes
>>>>>>>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for
>>>>>>>>> quotations,
>>>>>>>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper  
>>>>>>>>> and/or
>>>>>>>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>>>>>>>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
>>>>>>>> handout
>>>>>>>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody  
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>> although they *should* :-) ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level
>>>>>>>> lists,
>>>>>>>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that
>>>>>>>> generalities
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good  
>>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>>> cause.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming
>>>>>>>>> "X is
>>>>>>>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results,  
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>>>>>>>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the
>>>>>>>>> slides
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the
>>>>>>>>> URL
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of
>>>>>>>> footnote,
>>>>>>>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a
>>>>>>>> footnote in
>>>>>>>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the
>>>>>>>> frame
>>>>>>>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
>>>>>>>> makes it
>>>>>>>> sound, but who knows?[1]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between
>>>>>> beamer
>>>>>> and LaTeX very well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
>>>>>> presentation of a LaTeX article.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX  
>>>>>> sectioning
>>>>>> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
>>>>>> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
>>>>>> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
>>>>>> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
>>>>>> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my
>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems
>>>>>> natural
>>>>>> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have
>>>>>> big
>>>>>> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a  
>>>>>> beamer
>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of  
>>>>>> view of
>>>>>> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode
>>>>>> Lisp
>>>>>> code owing to my own illiteracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
>>>
>>> PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/
>>>
>>> Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jan 31, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Adam Spiers wrote:
> I haven't seen it, but could you perhaps make use of edebug
> (conditional) breakpoints to track it down, or edebug evaluation
> lists, or even `edebug-set-global-break-condition' ?

Hi Adam,

yes, if I could *reproduce* this bug, I would use these tool to fix it.
But no-one, not even John can reliably reproduce it!

Darn.

- Carsten

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Adam Spiers]

On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 12:25:45PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Adam Spiers wrote:
> >I haven't seen it, but could you perhaps make use of edebug
> >(conditional) breakpoints to track it down, or edebug evaluation
> >lists, or even `edebug-set-global-break-condition' ?
> 
> Hi Adam,
> 
> yes, if I could *reproduce* this bug, I would use these tool to fix it.
> But no-one, not even John can reliably reproduce it!

Sure - that's why I was thinking that maybe you could come up with one
or more conditional breakpoints which would be likely to trigger only
when the bug occurs.  In this way a conditional breakpoint would be a
bit like the traditional "assertions" that people litter their code
with as sanity checks, never expecting the checks to fail, but
benefitting from the red flag if they do.  For example in this case,
presumably something's going wrong here:

(defun org-agenda-goto (&optional highlight)
  "Go to the Org-mode file which contains the item at point."
  (interactive)
  (let* ((marker (or (get-text-property (point) 'org-marker)
             (org-agenda-error)))
              (buffer (marker-buffer marker))
               (pos (marker-position marker)))
    (switch-to-buffer-other-window buffer)

and similarly for `org-agenda-switch-to', in which case perhaps you
could place conditional breakpoints asserting that the `buffer'
and `pos' variable always end up with sane values?

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Carsten Dominik]

On Jan 31, 2008, at 1:03 PM, Adam Spiers wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 31, 2008 at 12:25:45PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>> On Jan 31, 2008, at 11:32 AM, Adam Spiers wrote:
>>> I haven't seen it, but could you perhaps make use of edebug
>>> (conditional) breakpoints to track it down, or edebug evaluation
>>> lists, or even `edebug-set-global-break-condition' ?
>>
>> Hi Adam,
>>
>> yes, if I could *reproduce* this bug, I would use these tool to fix  
>> it.
>> But no-one, not even John can reliably reproduce it!
>
> Sure - that's why I was thinking that maybe you could come up with one
> or more conditional breakpoints which would be likely to trigger only
> when the bug occurs.  In this way a conditional breakpoint would be a
> bit like the traditional "assertions" that people litter their code
> with as sanity checks, never expecting the checks to fail, but
> benefitting from the red flag if they do.  For example in this case,
> presumably something's going wrong here:
>
> (defun org-agenda-goto (&optional highlight)
>  "Go to the Org-mode file which contains the item at point."
>  (interactive)
>  (let* ((marker (or (get-text-property (point) 'org-marker)
>             (org-agenda-error)))
>              (buffer (marker-buffer marker))
>               (pos (marker-position marker)))
>    (switch-to-buffer-other-window buffer)
>
> and similarly for `org-agenda-switch-to', in which case perhaps you
> could place conditional breakpoints asserting that the `buffer'
> and `pos' variable always end up with sane values?

Hmmm, yes, i see now what you mean.  I'll think about it.

- Carsten

Behavior Change/Bug: Agenda sorting of deadline items v > 4.73

[Eric J Haywiser]

I've noticed a change in the way org displays deadlines in the agenda starting
sometime after v4.73.  Before that time deadlines were displayed in 
chronological order.  This is the behavior I expect.  In the current org-5.16a 
and a number of versions before that the agenda items are in somewhat random 
order.  Order seems to depend on both the date and the order of the deadlines in 
the org file.

Apologies if this was an intended design change and I missed the announcement.
It has been difficult to keep up with all the wonderful advancements in org.
Perhaps I need to configure some variable to get back to the original behavior?

Behavior in 5.16a

Thursday  31 January 2008
   deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>

Behavior in 4.67c

Thursday  31 January 2008
   deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>

Also note that something like the <= v4.73 behavior can be achieved by inserting
the older org-agenda-get-deadlines function into 5.16a, but it seems to have 
some side effects.  Note the missing Deadline item for TODAY aka "Jan Three"
below.  Regardless I believe the bug, if present, may lie in that 
function.  I don't yet understand the internals.

Behavior in 5.16a with o-a-g-d from 4.67c overlayed

Thursday  31 January 2008
   deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
   deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>

The following is the example org file to generate this behavior.
Also, You will need to (set-variable org-deadline-warning-days 1000)
to test this.

* Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
* Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
* Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
* Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>

* Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
* Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
* Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
* Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>

Thanks.

P.S. Examples from emacs22, but similar problems in e21.

Re: Behavior Change/Bug: Agenda sorting of deadline items v > 4.73

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Eric,

sorting should be by priority.  Please check your values of
org-agenda-sorting-strategy, and take a look at the priorities of the
different items in the agenda by pressing "P" in the agenda.  If that
does not show what is wrong, I need to search, so let me know what ou  
find, please.

- Carsten

On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:33 PM, Eric J Haywiser wrote:

> I've noticed a change in the way org displays deadlines in the  
> agenda starting
> sometime after v4.73.  Before that time deadlines were displayed in  
> chronological order.  This is the behavior I expect.  In the current  
> org-5.16a and a number of versions before that the agenda items are  
> in somewhat random order.  Order seems to depend on both the date  
> and the order of the deadlines in the org file.
>
> Apologies if this was an intended design change and I missed the  
> announcement.
> It has been difficult to keep up with all the wonderful advancements  
> in org.
> Perhaps I need to configure some variable to get back to the  
> original behavior?
>
> Behavior in 5.16a
>
> Thursday  31 January 2008
>  deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>
>
> Behavior in 4.67c
>
> Thursday  31 January 2008
>  deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>
>
> Also note that something like the <= v4.73 behavior can be achieved  
> by inserting
> the older org-agenda-get-deadlines function into 5.16a, but it seems  
> to have some side effects.  Note the missing Deadline item for TODAY  
> aka "Jan Three"
> below.  Regardless I believe the bug, if present, may lie in that  
> function.  I don't yet understand the internals.
>
> Behavior in 5.16a with o-a-g-d from 4.67c overlayed
>
> Thursday  31 January 2008
>  deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
>  deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>
>
> The following is the example org file to generate this behavior.
> Also, You will need to (set-variable org-deadline-warning-days 1000)
> to test this.
>
> * Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
> * Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
> * Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
> * Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
>
> * Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
> * Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
> * Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
> * Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>
>
> Thanks.
>
> P.S. Examples from emacs22, but similar problems in e21.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Behavior Change/Bug: Agenda sorting of deadline items v > 4.73

[Eric J Haywiser]

> Hi Eric,
>
> sorting should be by priority.
> Please check your values of org-agenda-sorting-strategy,

In both examples it is set to

((agenda time-up category-keep priority-down)
(todo category-keep priority-down)
(tags category-keep))

> and take a look at the priorities of the different items in the agenda

and for the same org file,
which is the only org file used to construct the agenda I find:

Under 5.16a priorities

>> Thursday  31 January 2008
1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
1100>> deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
1009>> deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
1009>> deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
1006>> deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>

Under 4.67c priorites are

>> Thursday  31 January 2008
1740>> deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
1725>> deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
1375>> deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
1360>> deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
1100>> deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
  995>> deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
  644>> deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
  629>> deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>

> does not show what is wrong, I need to search, so let me know what ou find,

So shouldn't the priorities be the same across versions for same org file and
org-agenda-sorting-strategy values?

Maybe someone else can duplicate this behavior with the org file that follows?

Thanks!

>> The following is the example org file to generate this behavior.
>> Also, You will need to (set-variable org-deadline-warning-days 1000)
>> to test this.
>> 
>> * Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31 Thu>
>> * Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31 Thu>
>> * Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31 Thu>
>> * Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31 Thu>
>> 
>> * Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15 Thu>
>> * Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15 Thu>
>> * Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15 Thu>
>> * Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15 Thu>

RE: Behavior Change/Bug: Agenda sorting of deadline itemsv > 4.73

[Egli Christian (KIRO 41)]

Hi Eric

> In both examples it is set to
> ((agenda time-up category-keep priority-down)

> Under 5.16a priorities

> >> Thursday  31 January 2008
> 1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31
Thu>
> 1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31
Thu>
> 1100>> deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31
Thu>
> 1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15
Thu>
> 1100>> deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15
Thu>
> 1009>> deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15
Thu>
> 1009>> deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31
Thu>
> 1006>> deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15
Thu>

> Under 4.67c priorites are

> >> Thursday  31 January 2008
> 1740>> deadline-order-bug:In -730 d.:  Jan One DEADLINE: <2006-01-31
Thu>
> 1725>> deadline-order-bug:In -715 d.:  Feb One DEADLINE: <2006-02-15
Thu>
> 1375>> deadline-order-bug:In -365 d.:  Jan Two DEADLINE: <2007-01-31
Thu>
> 1360>> deadline-order-bug:In -350 d.:  Feb Two DEADLINE: <2007-02-15
Thu>
> 1100>> deadline-order-bug:Deadline:   Jan Three DEADLINE: <2008-01-31
Thu>
>   995>> deadline-order-bug:In  15 d.:  Feb Three DEADLINE: <2008-02-15
Thu>
>   644>> deadline-order-bug:In 366 d.:  Jan Four DEADLINE: <2009-01-31
Thu>
>   629>> deadline-order-bug:In 381 d.:  Feb Four DEADLINE: <2009-02-15
Thu>

> Maybe someone else can duplicate this behavior with the org file that
follows?

Hm, the 4.67c behaviour seems a bit more sensible as it incorporates the
number of days that a deadline is delayed into the priority calculation.
Have a look at the function org-agenda-get-deadlines where the priority
of a deadline is calculated. Specifically the following code:

:	(setq s (match-string 1)
:	      pos (1- (match-beginning 1))
:	      d2 (org-time-string-to-absolute (match-string 1) d1)
:	      diff (- d2 d1)
:	      wdays (org-get-wdays s)
:	      dfrac (/ (* 1.0 (- wdays diff)) wdays)
:	      upcomingp (and todayp (> diff 0)))

and 

:		  'priority (+ (if upcomingp (floor (* dfrac 10.)) 100)
:			       (org-get-priority txt))

You might be able to tweak this to get the desired behaviour.

Hope that helps
Christian

RE: Behavior Change/Bug: Agenda sorting of deadline itemsv > 4.73

[Eric J Haywiser]

> Hm, the 4.67c behaviour seems a bit more sensible as it incorporates the
> number of days that a deadline is delayed into the priority calculation.
> Have a look at the function org-agenda-get-deadlines where the priority
> of a deadline is calculated. Specifically the following code:
>
> :	(setq s (match-string 1)
> :	      pos (1- (match-beginning 1))
> :	      d2 (org-time-string-to-absolute (match-string 1) d1)
> :	      diff (- d2 d1)
> :	      wdays (org-get-wdays s)
> :	      dfrac (/ (* 1.0 (- wdays diff)) wdays)
> :	      upcomingp (and todayp (> diff 0)))
>
> and
>
> :		  'priority (+ (if upcomingp (floor (* dfrac 10.)) 100)
> :			       (org-get-priority txt))
>
> You might be able to tweak this to get the desired behaviour.
>
> Hope that helps
> Christian
>
Thank you.  That pointer was very helpful.

Without understanding all the details of the priority mechanism, I have this 
tweak which may introduce other issues.

It maps deadlines in range [-deadline-warning-days -> +deadline-warning-days]
to a priority [2*d-w-d -> 0].  The other priorities coming from
org-get-priority are shifted  10x relative to 2*d-w-d regardless of d-w-d's 
value.  This makes priorites coming from o-g-p have more weight than those 
calculated within o-a-g-d.  I think this  may have been the original idea with 
the (* 1000 and (+ 100 but I'm not really sure.

diff org-5.19a.el org.el
14979d14978
<
14984,14985c14983,14984
<       (* 1000 (- org-lowest-priority org-default-priority))
<       (* 1000 (- org-lowest-priority
---
>       (* (expt 10 (+ (floor (log10 (* 2 org-deadline-warning-days))) 1)) (- 
org-lowest-priority org-default-priority)\
)
>       (* (expt 10 (+ (floor (log10 (* 2 org-deadline-warning-days))) 1)) (- 
org-lowest-priority
21165c21164,21167
<             upcomingp (and todayp (> diff 0)))
---
>             partialpriority (+ (- 0 diff) wdays)
>             upcomingp (and todayp (> diff 0))
>             pastp (<= diff 0)
>             )
21204,21205c21206
<                 'priority (+ (if upcomingp (floor (* dfrac 10.)) 100)
<                              (org-get-priority txt))
---
>                 'priority (+ partialpriority (org-get-priority txt))

Re: Behavior Change/Bug: Agenda sorting of deadline itemsv > 4.73

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Eric,

thanks for your report, this is fixed now.  The deadline priority is  
now 100
on the due date, and it changes by 100 over the duration of the
warning day period. I hope this does work better.

- Carsten

On Feb 1, 2008, at 5:57 PM, Eric J Haywiser wrote:

>> Hm, the 4.67c behaviour seems a bit more sensible as it  
>> incorporates the
>> number of days that a deadline is delayed into the priority  
>> calculation.
>> Have a look at the function org-agenda-get-deadlines where the  
>> priority
>> of a deadline is calculated. Specifically the following code:
>>
>> :	(setq s (match-string 1)
>> :	      pos (1- (match-beginning 1))
>> :	      d2 (org-time-string-to-absolute (match-string 1) d1)
>> :	      diff (- d2 d1)
>> :	      wdays (org-get-wdays s)
>> :	      dfrac (/ (* 1.0 (- wdays diff)) wdays)
>> :	      upcomingp (and todayp (> diff 0)))
>>
>> and
>>
>> :		  'priority (+ (if upcomingp (floor (* dfrac 10.)) 100)
>> :			       (org-get-priority txt))
>>
>> You might be able to tweak this to get the desired behaviour.
>>
>> Hope that helps
>> Christian
>>
> Thank you.  That pointer was very helpful.
>
> Without understanding all the details of the priority mechanism, I  
> have this tweak which may introduce other issues.
>
> It maps deadlines in range [-deadline-warning-days -> +deadline- 
> warning-days]
> to a priority [2*d-w-d -> 0].  The other priorities coming from
> org-get-priority are shifted  10x relative to 2*d-w-d regardless of  
> d-w-d's value.  This makes priorites coming from o-g-p have more  
> weight than those calculated within o-a-g-d.  I think this  may have  
> been the original idea with the (* 1000 and (+ 100 but I'm not  
> really sure.
>
> diff org-5.19a.el org.el
> 14979d14978
> <
> 14984,14985c14983,14984
> <       (* 1000 (- org-lowest-priority org-default-priority))
> <       (* 1000 (- org-lowest-priority
> ---
>>      (* (expt 10 (+ (floor (log10 (* 2 org-deadline-warning-days)))  
>> 1)) (-
> org-lowest-priority org-default-priority)\
> )
>>      (* (expt 10 (+ (floor (log10 (* 2 org-deadline-warning-days)))  
>> 1)) (-
> org-lowest-priority
> 21165c21164,21167
> <             upcomingp (and todayp (> diff 0)))
> ---
>>            partialpriority (+ (- 0 diff) wdays)
>>            upcomingp (and todayp (> diff 0))
>>            pastp (<= diff 0)
>>            )
> 21204,21205c21206
> <                 'priority (+ (if upcomingp (floor (* dfrac 10.))  
> 100)
> <                              (org-get-priority txt))
> ---
>>                'priority (+ partialpriority (org-get-priority txt))
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Bernt Hansen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
> been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
> if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
> that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
> report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.
>
> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
> the other window shows a completely different location.
> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
> this problem.
>
> So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as info
> as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
> what is your setup etc etc.

I'm seeing this as well.  Goto goes to the wrong place and redoing it
goes to the right place.   I'm also getting intermittent font colouring
problems in org which I haven't figured out.

I've also seen problems where column view inserts a new property drawer
in the middle of a clock drawer - but again I can't reproduce what
causes this.

I get something like (this is from memory since I've fixed up the cases
I've seen so the syntax probably isn't 100% accurate)

:CLOCK:
  CLOCK: blah
  :PROPERTIES:
  :Effort: 1:00
  :END:
:END:

I'm using the following org-mode features/behaviour:

 - clocking tasks
 - properties
 - tags
 - jumping around alot during the day (I basically clock everything)
 - this problem was happening before I started using column mode and
   is still happening after incorporating column mode
 - I use org-clock-goto many times a day (it's bound to a function key  for me)
 - I have multiple org mode buffers and I regularly move between them 

I wish I had more details.  I've been trying to reproduce what causes
this for a long time...

Bernt

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Philip Rooke]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
> been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
> if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
> that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
> report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.
>
> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
> the other window shows a completely different location.
> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
> this problem.

Yes, I have this problem on a pretty regular basis.  I haven't
bothered too much about it (sorry...) as I find that toggling follow
mode in the agenda tends to put things back in sync.

If no-one beats me to it I will try and see if I can localise it any
more.

Phil

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Jost Burkardt]

Philip Rooke <phil@yax.org.uk> writes:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
>> been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
>> if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
>> that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
>> report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.
>>
>> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
>> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
>> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
>> the other window shows a completely different location.
>> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
>> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
>> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
>> this problem.
>
> Yes, I have this problem on a pretty regular basis.  I haven't
> bothered too much about it (sorry...) as I find that toggling follow
> mode in the agenda tends to put things back in sync.
>
> If no-one beats me to it I will try and see if I can localise it any
> more.


I encouter a similar problem, and work around with toggling follow mode,
too. I cannot reproduce it at the moment, but I'll keep an eye on it
now.

--
 Jost

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Ivan Kanis]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),

Hi Carsten,

I have seen the bug and never thought much of it, I just refresh the
agenda view and it goes away. I'll pay attentions and see if I can
reproduce it.

Thanks for org!
-- 
Ivan
http://kanis.fr

  "The best age is the age you are."
    -- Maggie Kuhn

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Jost Burkardt]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
> the other window shows a completely different location.
> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
> this problem.
>
> So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as info
> as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
> what is your setup etc etc.

Hi,

I think I've finally found a example to reproduce this bug. The sample
orgfile looks like this

---- orgfile starts here ---
# -*- mode: org -*-

* Tasks
** DONE some Task
** DONE some Task
** DONE some Task
** DONE some Task 
** DONE some Task 
** DONE some Task 
.......
* calendar
** some calendar entry
   <2008-02-10 Do 18:30>
---- orgfile ends here ----

instead of "......." please add many more similar lines (approx. 50) of "** DONE some Task"

What I do is the following
- hide all sublevels via C-u TAB
- move cursor to  "* Tasks" cycle with TAB
- move cursor to second entry
- M-x calendar
- M-x org-calendar-goto-agenda
- within agenda move cursor to calendar entry
- press TAB

What happens is that focus is switched to org-file, but the cursor sits
on the 8th entry of "** DONE Some Task". When I move the cursor to the end
of my orgfile, I can see that the calendar entry is now correctly
reveal. Just the cursor position seems to be wrong. I tried using
edebug, but when stepping manually through org-agenda-goto, everything
went just fine and the cursor was positioned on the correct line?

When generating the above sample orgfile, the following aspects seemed
important.
- at least two lines before the entry "* Tasks", otherwise focus worked
  correctly
- many subentries below "* Tasks", I had the impression that frame has
  to be filled
- focus: the sublevels of "* calendar" must be hidden, maybe that
  explains, why position is found correctly on the second try.

I tried this on emacs 22.1.90 on windows with org-5.19a. I'll will test
this also with 5.20 (I just saw you did release it - I'm very much
looking forward to this release - Thank you !!)

Please inform me, if you need further information.

Best regards,

--
 Jost

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Jost,

I think I and many other people here owe you a beer.  You have finally
succeeded to make a reproducible case for this bug.  This is a bug  
somewhere
deep inside Emacs where some routine seems to call `set-window-start'
without the no-force argument behind my back.  I have a work-around,  
so I
am optimistic that this dreaded bug will have disappeared in the next  
release.

Thanks!

- Carsten

On Feb 6, 2008, at 7:08 PM, Jost Burkardt wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
>> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
>> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
>> the other window shows a completely different location.
>> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
>> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
>> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
>> this problem.
>>
>> So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as  
>> info
>> as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
>> what is your setup etc etc.
>
> Hi,
>
> I think I've finally found a example to reproduce this bug. The sample
> orgfile looks like this
>
> ---- orgfile starts here ---
> # -*- mode: org -*-
>
> * Tasks
> ** DONE some Task
> ** DONE some Task
> ** DONE some Task
> ** DONE some Task
> ** DONE some Task
> ** DONE some Task
> .......
> * calendar
> ** some calendar entry
>   <2008-02-10 Do 18:30>
> ---- orgfile ends here ----
>
> instead of "......." please add many more similar lines (approx. 50)  
> of "** DONE some Task"
>
> What I do is the following
> - hide all sublevels via C-u TAB
> - move cursor to  "* Tasks" cycle with TAB
> - move cursor to second entry
> - M-x calendar
> - M-x org-calendar-goto-agenda
> - within agenda move cursor to calendar entry
> - press TAB
>
> What happens is that focus is switched to org-file, but the cursor  
> sits
> on the 8th entry of "** DONE Some Task". When I move the cursor to  
> the end
> of my orgfile, I can see that the calendar entry is now correctly
> reveal. Just the cursor position seems to be wrong. I tried using
> edebug, but when stepping manually through org-agenda-goto, everything
> went just fine and the cursor was positioned on the correct line?
>
> When generating the above sample orgfile, the following aspects seemed
> important.
> - at least two lines before the entry "* Tasks", otherwise focus  
> worked
>  correctly
> - many subentries below "* Tasks", I had the impression that frame has
>  to be filled
> - focus: the sublevels of "* calendar" must be hidden, maybe that
>  explains, why position is found correctly on the second try.
>
> I tried this on emacs 22.1.90 on windows with org-5.19a. I'll will  
> test
> this also with 5.20 (I just saw you did release it - I'm very much
> looking forward to this release - Thank you !!)
>
> Please inform me, if you need further information.
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Jost

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Bernt Hansen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
> been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
> if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
> that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
> report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.
>
> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
> the other window shows a completely different location.
> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
> this problem.
>
> So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as info
> as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
> what is your setup etc etc.

Hi Carsten,

Here I am replying to a 2.5 year old post...  I assume this hasn't been
fixed yet.  I think I was the other person who mentioned this ages ago.
I'm still seeing this 'go to the wrong place' scenario up to a few times
per day.

It's really annoying - you 'go to' a task and it's the wrong place --
but if you do it again it works.  I've seen this occur in the following
cases:

   - looking at an agenda and hitting SPC or TAB to get to the task
   - jumping to the last refile task with C-u C-u C-c C-w
   - jumping to the last remember task with C-u C-u C-M-r

With follow mode on I've never noticed this bug but I don't use
follow-mode regularly.

Let me know if you can think of anything I can provide to help track
down this bug.

Regards,
Bernt

Re: Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Samuel Wales]

I get this bug all the time.  I think it might be old point.  It is
almost a feature, in that you get to see what I think is the old point
in the buffer first, then you try again and go where you want.

Samuel

-- 
Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years]
==========
Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 26, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Bernt Hansen wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> John Wiegley is being haunted by a strange bug and I have so far not
>> been able to reproduce and fix it.  So I would like to know
>> if anyone else sees the same bug and can contribute observations
>> that may help us to track this down.  I believe I had a similar
>> report quite a while ago, but don't remember who reported it.
>>
>> The bug happens when being in the agenda and trying to goto or show
>> the origin location of an agenda entry by pressing SPC or RET.
>> John reports that sometimes (for him several times a day),
>> the other window shows a completely different location.
>> The most weird part of it is that going back to the agenda buffer
>> and then trying the exact same command again, everything works
>> fine!  This is driving me crazy, and I'd love to find and fix
>> this problem.
>>
>> So please, if anyone sees the same bug, try to give as as much as  
>> info
>> as possible.  How often does it happen, under what circumstances,
>> what is your setup etc etc.
>
> Hi Carsten,
>
> Here I am replying to a 2.5 year old post...  I assume this hasn't  
> been
> fixed yet.  I think I was the other person who mentioned this ages  
> ago.
> I'm still seeing this 'go to the wrong place' scenario up to a few  
> times
> per day.
>
> It's really annoying - you 'go to' a task and it's the wrong place --
> but if you do it again it works.  I've seen this occur in the  
> following
> cases:
>
> - looking at an agenda and hitting SPC or TAB to get to the task
> - jumping to the last refile task with C-u C-u C-c C-w
> - jumping to the last remember task with C-u C-u C-M-r
>
> With follow mode on I've never noticed this bug but I don't use
> follow-mode regularly.
>
> Let me know if you can think of anything I can provide to help track
> down this bug.

Unfortunately, I really don't know how to fix this bug.   Until I can  
get a way to reproduce this, it will be very hard to figure out what  
is causing this.

My suspicion is that it has to do with redisplay.  When Emacs is  
redisplaying, it will move window start in a window so that (point)  
will be visible in the buffer.  For some reason that is a complex  
combination of folding text (maybe) and the complex code that Org  
evaluates before actually showing an agenda item, it seems that the  
redisplay engine might be kicked of with a wrong idea of where point  
should be.

In this view, the reason why Samuel is getting this error more than  
anybody else would have to do with the fact that he is using HUGE  
fonts, with very little text in a window at any given time, so that  
the "point is not in the window" condition might be triggered more  
often.

These are wild guesses, I know that years ago I spent *many* hours  
trying to figure out what is happening her.  I still don't know.

What you can do is make me a test case that will reproduce this  
behavior, reliably.  I think that this problem could depend on hook  
settings and on setings of the context-revealing variables like

org-show-hierarchy-above
org-show-following-heading
org-show-entry-below
org-show-siblings

so if you are trying to make a test case, you should use the same  
values for these variables and also try to figure out if the current  
visibility state of the outline has to do with it.

Also, does this error exist in Emacs 23?

:/

Regards

- Carsten

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[Bernt Hansen]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> On May 26, 2010, at 4:44 AM, Bernt Hansen wrote:
>
>> Let me know if you can think of anything I can provide to help track
>> down this bug.
>
> Unfortunately, I really don't know how to fix this bug.   Until I can
> get a way to reproduce this, it will be very hard to figure out what
> is causing this.
>
> My suspicion is that it has to do with redisplay.  When Emacs is
> redisplaying, it will move window start in a window so that (point)
> will be visible in the buffer.  For some reason that is a complex
> combination of folding text (maybe) and the complex code that Org
> evaluates before actually showing an agenda item, it seems that the
> redisplay engine might be kicked of with a wrong idea of where point
> should be.
>
> In this view, the reason why Samuel is getting this error more than
> anybody else would have to do with the fact that he is using HUGE
> fonts, with very little text in a window at any given time, so that
> the "point is not in the window" condition might be triggered more
> often.
>
> These are wild guesses, I know that years ago I spent *many* hours
> trying to figure out what is happening her.  I still don't know.
>
> What you can do is make me a test case that will reproduce this
> behavior, reliably.  I think that this problem could depend on hook
> settings and on setings of the context-revealing variables like
>
> org-show-hierarchy-above
> org-show-following-heading
> org-show-entry-below
> org-show-siblings
>
> so if you are trying to make a test case, you should use the same
> values for these variables and also try to figure out if the current
> visibility state of the outline has to do with it.
>
> Also, does this error exist in Emacs 23?

Hi Carsten,

I don't know if this is also in Emacs 23.  I currently run two instances
of org-mode (Emacs 22 in Linux at home and Emacs 23 in Windows at work).
I'll keep an eye on it and report back if I see this behaviour in Emacs
23.

I am not currently trying to build a test case for this bug since I
can't reproduce it at will yet.

Thanks for the descriptive analysis.  Hopefully we can squash this one
either by it being fixed in Emacs 23 or by getting a reproducible test
case that shows the problem.

Thanks,
Bernt

Re: Strange bug, request for more info

[John Wiegley]

Brent Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:

> I am not currently trying to build a test case for this bug since I
> can't reproduce it at will yet.
> 
> Thanks for the descriptive analysis.  Hopefully we can squash this one
> either by it being fixed in Emacs 23 or by getting a reproducible test
> case that shows the problem.

I would like to note that I haven't noticed this issue in a really long
time now.

John