From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:4789::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id kEukFvzE4mSz6AAASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2023 03:59:24 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:4789::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8BeqFvzE4mRzQgAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2023 03:59:24 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA7855330F for ; Mon, 21 Aug 2023 03:59:22 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=fizz.buzz header.s=fm3 header.b=G8kNZcCt; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=wAxJ24hK; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1692583164; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=WsfD6VN9sRnM3Q+tSHEgyFna6ZyassL1TQbhLWldIWg=; b=WCVBLXdBUU0hHeJc+moHp4x2oOfrkWelzrCB1rFf+gddEZ1vk6gNurM/1s84jGsmkDUSzu JfSq5r36JZNxtGC1NuuFgleVXwWDGZaxM/XQoCzdeT1Y62vWu7KNWIPgdkZBFls/gq1wSk w5GaSvCDV5Yr9t3peVtU/Kp22Bj5CTps/Q3K5xsmB0ImTfynnMk+wQCwlPScdWNhqklput 1VYNBVTa44+K0olAIRqbQ0phxjX/zIgtQr9DgP52pur6GIBlDmz1iOQXDtoya2XCNdFVZG 3D8GSLh0ok8vhou1UQuGDL7Yl8q2iHGUG+wZK/1E4YyirPHPiChPD3DExslXAw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1692583164; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=BDQKEf5JpYXaMpgk9ECyBfL1PutbRJPR1xvxWHbWSro9tBi8ZGz5qLcMnRFNRPyn1PuHWF wUjY8NkJSltx5tIInbu3qeCRJ5gVbZjB4OA7eA3F3UI4SE4749CyS22OZBu3QTW94iweOt nwEQhYgV6cvxNaQQ+0327OuNgDIk8XNKuKmV5B+NpfXoMu181rjOE3219uprL/qkuERzop 40KvfNR5pEqDbt6e57yeIpl/YebudpOC36KuVb41QjpANuhIbhgS0KhboKii2Uo80+raGy Y0jRJcDsZy0wV1zZKCOf85bz51RlSQA/echAUpG9Xf42DNrKTxehzwo4wigAoA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=fizz.buzz header.s=fm3 header.b=G8kNZcCt; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=wAxJ24hK; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qXuBT-0007ig-9y; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:58:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qXuBR-0007iY-LY for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:58:21 -0400 Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qXuBP-0006e7-7D for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:58:21 -0400 Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D08915C0078; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap47 ([10.202.2.97]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:58:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fizz.buzz; h=cc :cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender :subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1692583094; x=1692669494; bh=Ws fD6VN9sRnM3Q+tSHEgyFna6ZyassL1TQbhLWldIWg=; b=G8kNZcCt+6tQmi9SWw ZyPShCXCWKGvp0qoQrR9hxcafFmyLmTvGNjqWocjM7+ZvtXj0v3eRhr9RQJVZjca gXmooL3l4xRzHN+Z6tcNIjDxZMGQn3qrL5VInLWTpUkC4Ui+5IfvP/1ro0Swk6oO dMXnyr7QI53JeJgxkyss6lDcppNvmic2C4q2SHtuc7Ob+5kpVtoVtyUlOv55uZSo oSrhAt0EVs7hBqN8WtvxARo2WCvccF23rUvPTQv4men2vCS+RTwQWG2zwh4RGYxa lPV6RVEumVJyTIqnhF/UGvCYzpNqjGK7Gb9nF28astc0dPyt2Wh8TO/kAJOEtLjR 90sQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; t=1692583094; x=1692669494; bh=WsfD6VN9sRnM3 Q+tSHEgyFna6ZyassL1TQbhLWldIWg=; b=wAxJ24hKRBZ7wT82fYQvu2QjMfvMc J5CTNCbAUMMfJmfbP/PIyU1SKKL+wX0HGkGNPcIbF6qBAEhCAKYEXSWpGPernxuq cLL3Bu2lPbrq0Z3WWxJzcPTxqlRQf8GtvmlXuWpo6KTkO5cTkmar9R8LZieR7LbK UU81YDdmaX2cwMhqGkBGK7Q5CODhrH6qcGGgAd/beVHGZbmuEg9v49lHie4/I0Rh y9Y+Gb1w7BOflpsLKjZYUQToJRBvaTTHR9Iof+qCAL8Ya+tmiCFh+WPI7qHuwPLN EyL0AdwvxGfIvB4dSGUPdfAgChVPfZQJHOiiN2PpiVsF8jmKqM01HeJsw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedviedruddukedgheefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvvefutgesth dtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdfvohhmucetlhgvgigrnhguvghrfdcuoehtohhmsehf ihiiiidrsghuiiiiqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeevieffudetleelieefteeiffeiff ehjeefteffledugfekvedutdduvdeiudegjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecu rfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehtohhmsehfihiiiidrsghuiiii X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i589b4368:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8F325A60078; Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:58:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.9.0-alpha0-624-g7714e4406d-fm-20230801.001-g7714e440 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <1c833eb8-c556-437b-ac5b-be360ebcc869@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <87bkf3o211.fsf@localhost> References: <9372527e-3852-419e-936a-7b4dd38cc847@app.fastmail.com> <87bkf3o211.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 21:56:48 -0400 From: "Tom Alexander" To: "Ihor Radchenko" Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Clarification on blank lines following list items Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.26; envelope-from=tom@fizz.buzz; helo=out2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.79 X-Spam-Score: -4.79 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EA7855330F X-Migadu-Scanner: mx1.migadu.com X-TUID: DJmxHy39Wg4l Thank you so much for explaining all of that! There is some good information there I was missing. I think the most important bit I was missing is the post-blank stuff. I was only looking at begin->end but I think digging into the post-blank is what makes this consistent. I've got 2 separate questions: 1. Is the following statement true? "Two elements can count the same character in their post-blank?" I am seeing dual-ownership of the post-blank in the examples below, but at the same time if I put a plain-list inside a footnote definition, the footnote definition ends up with sole custody of the post-blank. 2. I'm still not sure about some behavior I'm seeing. I think it would be easiest to see if we focus on exactly 1 blank line: ``` 1. bar 2. baz <---- this blank line here ipsum ``` In this example, the blank line gets counted in the post-blank for the plain-list but not for the item: ``` plain-list: post-blank 1 | begin 1 end 16 | contents-begin 1 contents-end 15 item: post-blank 0 | begin 1 end 8 | contents-begin 4 contents-end 8 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 4 end 8 | contents-begin 4 contents-end 8 item: post-blank 0 | begin 8 end 15 | contents-begin 11 contents-end 15 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 11 end 15 | contents-begin 11 contents-end 15 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 16 end 22 | contents-begin 16 contents-end 22 ``` but if we take that plain-list and nest it inside another plain-list: ``` 1. foo 1. bar 2. baz <---- this blank line here 2. lorem ipsum ``` The blank line gets counted as a post-blank for both the item "foo" and the item "baz": ``` plain-list: post-blank 0 | begin 1 end 38 | contents-begin 1 contents-end 38 item: post-blank 1 | begin 1 end 29 | contents-begin 4 contents-end 28 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 4 end 8 | contents-begin 4 contents-end 8 plain-list: post-blank 0 | begin 8 end 29 | contents-begin 8 contents-end 29 item: post-blank 0 | begin 8 end 18 | contents-begin 14 contents-end 18 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 14 end 18 | contents-begin 14 contents-end 18 item: post-blank 1 | begin 18 end 29 | contents-begin 24 contents-end 28 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 24 end 28 | contents-begin 24 contents-end 28 item: post-blank 0 | begin 29 end 38 | contents-begin 32 contents-end 38 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 32 end 38 | contents-begin 32 contents-end 38 paragraph: post-blank 0 | begin 38 end 44 | contents-begin 38 contents-end 44 ``` Meaning the post-blank did this movement: ``` plain-list: post-blank 0 item: post-blank 1 <---<----<----<-\ paragraph: post-blank 0 | plain-list: post-blank 0 >---->--| item: post-blank 0 | paragraph: post-blank 0 | item: post-blank 1 <---<---/ paragraph: post-blank 0 item: post-blank 0 paragraph: post-blank 0 paragraph: post-blank 0 ``` Question ---> So why is the item "baz" gaining a post-blank instead of the inner plain-list (bar baz) keeping that post-blank? I would expect it to instead be: ``` plain-list: post-blank 0 item: post-blank 1 paragraph: post-blank 0 here -> plain-list: post-blank 1 item: post-blank 0 paragraph: post-blank 0 not here -> item: post-blank 0 paragraph: post-blank 0 item: post-blank 0 paragraph: post-blank 0 paragraph: post-blank 0 ``` I re-did both test cases using greater blocks and lesser blocks instead of paragraphs to make sure it wasn't that historical exception at the end of your email, and the post-blank behavior was exactly the same. -- Tom Alexander