From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id xZLpF7IkomAjZAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 10:09:22 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id ULnjErIkomCBPgAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 08:09:22 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7530A1DC0C for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 10:09:21 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:40902 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1liYJS-00057K-Sc for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 17 May 2021 04:09:18 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48782) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1liYIx-000576-96 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 17 May 2021 04:08:47 -0400 Received: from mout-p-103.mailbox.org ([2001:67c:2050::465:103]:49380) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1liYIp-0003rq-Sp for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 17 May 2021 04:08:46 -0400 Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [80.241.60.241]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-103.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FkBbP3kcZzQk1l; Mon, 17 May 2021 10:08:33 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailbox.org; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :mime-version:date:date:message-id:from:from:references:subject :subject:received; s=mail20150812; t=1621238906; bh=1iLOxOyU+zaF dLbLRLwNEODYDKIaobrm0k+fOXjXG80=; b=Cg0BZv0YD/R2Ycm4eVEyjEwNdSkS WYWYYL/NSIAgqKohQJayFX0UIAhbqea8i16wYED1/RIm6lGQkDmTlAyNlqFFTIwl 3wBFtgP/POZI5On30ElR5CjT6RBlEzag+UIjwaDsYhPa2EG6fw4o5+b1Mkm1Oqx3 zZvqO8JoPbTx4SKFPnRnkw9GCr0yzKIHKjcw3TuTgQfq5I0m9xuiMkCzO/0lSedA P0RrPwKv0mgFnbkHcQaoJFh116IB0J1ZZePBpucev06UBIIMajuys47F771j5QFJ LGE8MqYZ1QHEYO/U3NLw7mB02RhvaHyvRHUigi9ILcdkqJw3LY8d1hhr4g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org; s=mail20150812; t=1621238911; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=OL2vX1s4xk3zsw7u/plF9goc3hEF1Qyh8wcUUbByqRE=; b=d39xt1RFBtbyYNqE3RE6t9o+IjxrzahGkaZnog6D+JYDQVJXNVGFaBXFuW3Hfm+QPzRp8K oIzEa4wFiglIr0/yDaD9KdHV9wHUqbG2lwwYimJtT2J3WBDL5M7RuDw0fT7MorFvEc4J4v RFc9mAWBlgLwvs8fyFr26NWwakTYs2oIthqdt/+i4ooeERI4xuaLYhZRiflL3jD7TXUwWK bCoCYczxZrJt3duohy9iEIcK5irgbswRu0DR/ruXMSBFCc/5Q4wL21v+Nu5P0q6K+oWDGn 4d1jPnIWB4Xd+/sABUpnsA43zAwf0jhnd/TKYj12ekqXz+3Zt+fRJfeMPeXlHA== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241]) by spamfilter05.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter05.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.123]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id 7MApvU0g_uK8; Mon, 17 May 2021 10:08:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations To: Bruce D'Arcus , Org Mode List References: <871raawc7j.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <4dd47d8d-5dd8-4769-7e2f-eb3438ba0b4a@mailbox.org> <87sg2orz0z.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <81051f87-a90e-56ed-7867-d6179ec1e9ad@mailbox.org> From: Denis Maier Message-ID: <139ff81d-4af6-1e75-f4c9-416032fc514f@mailbox.org> Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 10:08:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MBO-SPAM-Probability: X-Rspamd-Score: -5.22 / 15.00 / 15.00 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 3687F181C X-Rspamd-UID: e3fd0d Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:67c:2050::465:103; envelope-from=denismaier@mailbox.org; helo=mout-p-103.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_DOTEDU=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1621238961; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=OL2vX1s4xk3zsw7u/plF9goc3hEF1Qyh8wcUUbByqRE=; b=OGfp63ZmB7trNhi0ia5svmzB5t0zdzrn5dTrTmwJVr72W9BcJpl6eT406Uj/BcqCFveLjy ZMuIcQfolNFtywIZuwuLFGaFGomBTiemTVhJalK5pUl3K4+6IRM8zkkx8HenSWSGBX+VYs 96MUnnO9l6VUZrGEUojSUj+0YU+fIpEFs8wZiwZ0UgNQxotBlQ0BKwOREcKtEluRu+ddkS q+ifNo3oBOllLqoZduq2UcYDFVL6rj8Ng0S2iI380FrAH5Mp59VhlRNO3sMXSFt3ka7owG y85ddMBtgmA79kcleDwoGbJxCxxbmf9z5h3dXzwwfQGp+RsL+PAEuahnCYWz4w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621238961; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=l9KXWMArw/B3nDJ+qmdCdFn7PKB+0cxK1PaUFDs9i9/b7WGbuCBQgM4+dhxHIx/U7D7I0J uwdrokTh3PSrcMsvqGh12fgyq+uTsb/DR3Gu18rNeWldrvohh9R6ooXzOQkVCFptRoY9S+ 6LpjZsx2B3l+Sqivtv9ghacAvIANMsEmPXBeNGlJpc1VN5TN1x6nxEWHFUJrcz1vfG/tBR vEf/kF0qowL/cltQVx7oAllPq/Nae6iJhHUPUrGog55Po2xCo53AedgCMeobB5BSKWO+PL P2yVy+XcWvowfF7XR070N5C+lZhcdFVWdR3T3Zp4eCtE+i6FYt7wACrIBJRkTg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=Cg0BZv0Y; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=d39xt1RF; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.64 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=Cg0BZv0Y; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=d39xt1RF; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7530A1DC0C X-Spam-Score: -1.64 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 9piagRZ8suXT Am 17.05.2021 um 00:24 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 6:03 PM Denis Maier > wrote: >> >> Am 16.05.2021 um 23:38 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > > .... > >>> Can you clarify the rule/situation that would use that approach? >>> >> >> Chicago Manual of Style 15.26: >> "When the source of a block quotation is given in parentheses at the end >> of the quotation, the opening parenthesis appears after the final >> punctuation mark of the quoted material. No period either precedes or >> follows the closing parenthesis." > > Maybe me and a lot of scholars aren't very good at following these rules :-) > > Or maybe the stuff I read and write doesn't follow Chicago, etc for > whatever reason. > >> Seems to be the same in MLA and APA by the way: >> https://writingcenter.uagc.edu/block-quotations > > Very helpful! > > So what are you thinking; this punctuation-manipulation should not > apply to blockquotes at all? I think there are a couple of options and combinations thereof: 1. Do nothing special, just treat block quotations like regular paragraphs. 2. Don't apply this punctuation-manipulation to blockquotes at all, i.e. let authors handle this manually. 3. Adjust RULE in the manipulation function: Let it accept two patterns: '((outside outside before) (outside outside after)) The first would apply to inline quotations, the second to blockquotes. 4. IIUC, it's possible to set certain properties at block elements. So, maybe you could actually add citation information there, e.g.: #+BEGIN_QUOTE :cite @doe p.45 This is a blockquote in its own paragraph. #+END_QUOTE Unsure about the syntax, but you get the idea. This should allow for complex manipulations: the citation can be added before or after the punctuation mark; if a journal requires quotation marks even around blockquotes => just add them during export; if the period is not part of the original quotation you could just do this: #+BEGIN_QUOTE :cite @doe p.45 :punct . This is a blockquote in its own paragraph #+END_QUOTE Then the period will be added during export, but if a journal wants an ellipsis in that case you can also just add that during export. This is a blockquote in its own paragraph [...].[1] Now, this is of course rather complex and might add a lot of overhead. I don't think users should be required to use this, but this could nevertheless be added as an additional and more powerful mechanism. 5. Don't apply punctuation-manipulation to individual blockquotes. #+BEGIN_QUOTE :punctuation-manipulation nil This is a blockquote in its own paragraph. [@doe p. 45] #+END_QUOTE (Maybe adding someting like this even for inline citations would be a good idea: "asdf." [cite: @doe p. 45 :punctuation-manipulation nil] I can imagine many users will be happy with the automatism 95% of the time, but there will always be egde cases.) Again, as I've said above, a combination of these options might be the way to go. E.g., the default could be to disable punctuation-manipulation for blockquotes. In addition to that there could also be a properties based mechanism that offers more options. (Thinking more about it, 3 and 4 would actually also play nicely together.) Denis