From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by arlo.cworth.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99C26DE108B for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 01:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cworth.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.237 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.665, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.103, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=disabled Received: from arlo.cworth.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (arlo.cworth.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fBBM0KdKpurW for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 01:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from che.mayfirst.org (che.mayfirst.org [162.247.75.118]) by arlo.cworth.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 795116DE1085 for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 01:15:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019; t=1559636150; h=from : to : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=iIdNSk0IChwZVvqUbdbYTPuatK0F1xS0xwQlc82qjGE=; b=9YRvyLTQp87TEaVUs+YbenyVzPj7rEuZVsqDVI9E5I7GO17+r2YLGF7a ST9VctUoBnALk8oec8ZMbu4SM+z1Dg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=fifthhorseman.net; i=@fifthhorseman.net; q=dns/txt; s=2019rsa; t=1559636150; h=from : to : subject : in-reply-to : references : date : message-id : mime-version : content-type : from; bh=iIdNSk0IChwZVvqUbdbYTPuatK0F1xS0xwQlc82qjGE=; b=q7tceB3z1yjLZJofwt9fZkTmNXjOYHmIunpusXgWhAk6xAKbDqbSnbPt VEls2STt9+On8Kn+2BbeMjxs++n5llcCd/u3ZungpGZnsZBf+BYsFdcl2W /oORgscOZgA5WfuVjai/7E5O9sMt/9NXokAcF9ePGh4j9AgyqUDc5sKXfo 7xnHRMz9oqtORXNkpK5+NFTbMhHNkujJYpVPEC7VBB12e0Eg5Dm2vf21Ds ppD+JjpcTaUajZuFaXAKbrDXZwAZ0e5LEhz2nyAPw9dLCMS2V3bMQMPwmm /bbOXqpyO20c46FNM0fdExlOG8rcPkLEt4MSyuJJ0pPHx5FR3EI2Iw== Received: from fifthhorseman.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:60d:4864:1fff:fe17:5aa8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by che.mayfirst.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 10954F99E; Tue, 4 Jun 2019 04:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by fifthhorseman.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id CC74420145; Mon, 3 Jun 2019 18:16:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel Kahn Gillmor To: Ralph Seichter , notmuch@notmuchmail.org Subject: Re: feature request: caching message arrival time In-Reply-To: <87zhmyrcl3.fsf@ra.horus-it.com> References: <8736kuhtky.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <875zpppevs.fsf@ra.horus-it.com> <87tvd9gw5w.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87v9xnt5as.fsf@swing.csc.kth.se> <87muiyhkpy.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> <87zhmyrcl3.fsf@ra.horus-it.com> Autocrypt: addr=dkg@fifthhorseman.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEXEK/AhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAr/gSROcn+6m8ijTN0DV9AahoHGafy52RRkhCZVwxhEe0K0Rh bmllbCBLYWhuIEdpbGxtb3IgPGRrZ0BmaWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldD6ImQQTFggAQQIbAQUJA8Jn AAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgBYhBMS8Lds4zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJcQsbzAhkB AAoJEPIGkReQOOXG4fkBAO1joRxqAZY57PjdzGieXLpluk9RkWa3ufkt3YUVEpH/AP9c+pgIxtyW +FwMQRjlqljuj8amdN4zuEqaCy4hhz/1DbgzBFxCv4sWCSsGAQQB2kcPAQEHQERSZxSPmgtdw6nN u7uxY7bzb9TnPrGAOp9kClBLRwGfiPUEGBYIACYWIQTEvC3bOMzpZIXr6cLyBpEXkDjlxgUCXEK/ iwIbAgUJAeEzgACBCRDyBpEXkDjlxnYgBBkWCAAdFiEEyQ5tNiAKG5IqFQnndhgZZSmuX/gFAlxC v4sACgkQdhgZZSmuX/iVWgD/fCU4ONzgy8w8UCHGmrmIZfDvdhg512NIBfx+Mz9ls5kA/Rq97vz4 z48MFuBdCuu0W/fVqVjnY7LN5n+CQJwGC0MIA7QA/RyY7Sz2gFIOcrns0RpoHr+3WI+won3xCD8+ sVXSHZvCAP98HCjDnw/b0lGuCR7coTXKLIM44/LFWgXAdZjm1wjODbg4BFxCv50SCisGAQQBl1UB BQEBB0BG4iXnHX/fs35NWKMWQTQoRI7oiAUt0wJHFFJbomxXbAMBCAeIfgQYFggAJhYhBMS8Lds4 zOlkhevpwvIGkReQOOXGBQJcQr+dAhsMBQkB4TOAAAoJEPIGkReQOOXGe/cBAPlek5d9xzcXUn/D kY6jKmxe26CTws3ZkbK6Aa5Ey/qKAP0VuPQSCRxA7RKfcB/XrEphfUFkraL06Xn/xGwJ+D0hCw== Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2019 18:16:55 -0400 Message-ID: <878suigvqg.fsf@fifthhorseman.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-BeenThere: notmuch@notmuchmail.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Use and development of the notmuch mail system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2019 08:15:54 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain On Mon 2019-06-03 16:02:48 +0200, Ralph Seichter wrote: > Not meaning to complicate things, but Notmuch does not receive messages > at all. ;-) One needs to rely on some software to populate the Maildir > tree (Dovecot LMTP in my case, Postfix or some other MTA for local > delivery in other cases). Any software transporting the raw messages > can, and sometimes must, manipulate the header data, and the order in > which files within the Maildir tree are created is also not determined > by Notmuch. > > As an example: My nightly backup script disables local delivery for the > duration of the backup process. Once reactivated, delivery of queued > messages resumes, but it is not guaranteed to happen in the order of > arrival. So even the local MTA, although trusted, might induce issues in > terms of delivery time. I agree with you! the e-mail system, like any other store-and-forward ecosystem, offers no guarantees of message delivery. fwiw, i'm not claiming that the time notmuch receives the message is guaranteed to be close to the time that the message was sent. but i can guarantee two things: * notmuch cannot receive the message *before* it was sent :) * if the local system clock is correct, notmuch can place a plausible upper bound on the Date: header that is included in the message. This alone is useful data. --dkg --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYKAB0WIQTJDm02IAobkioVCed2GBllKa5f+AUCXPWcVwAKCRB2GBllKa5f +Kn3AQD6TqrWgefI6oznCoKIu/XAOAUYSPE4fFVwnwUqscCzHwEA6tu5WoJ9wGiu nq5no1eaqJeOxpV6NETXJC8QAl/G2wU= =iJpF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--