From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.6 (2021-04-09) on dcvr.yhbt.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-ASN: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=3.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,DKIM_VALID_EF shortcircuit=no autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.6 Received: from localhost (dcvr.yhbt.net [127.0.0.1]) by dcvr.yhbt.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB8A1F626; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 21:22:38 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=80x24.org; s=selector1; t=1676841758; bh=SZWIsBlkLJLqv4t4pL9YDxly9oNpZorA0mt8owsXVIo=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=14WD8Y21xKcQ3cyFRwymxUIlVRLFvK5Xx7HPsaMPqZcY/I98uUy0f4APutltxbOXQ /NO8IcojoW36RGQZ/oMCXa1SIUzX7+niMe1vpTONK3s2LVLRpJ3xkZc7RKm+B9a78v dAMvIq3YMlQnqldad1DFqa5NMiBjFJtvTyBHUrRo= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 21:22:38 +0000 From: Eric Wong To: Charles Zhang Cc: meta@public-inbox.org Subject: Re: Considerations about format=flowed support and web page responsiveness Message-ID: <20230219212238.M231756@dcvr> References: <20230213105925.6zccabv3yldniqam@m> <20230214073556.M451504@dcvr> <20230218205150.txwve6shp6ddqfff@m> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20230218205150.txwve6shp6ddqfff@m> List-Id: Charles Zhang wrote: > However, if the author considers an email to be preformatted text and does > not intend it to be reflowed, f=f should be disabled for this email. > Generally it's not encouraged to send patches as f=f, as per the current > lkml guide [2]. Right, and most messages are not f=f nowadays. Every commit message in a patch email is expected to be preformatted as it ends up being viewed via `git log' in a terminal. > On Tue, Feb 14, 2023 at 07:35:56AM +0000, Eric Wong wrote: > > It's of utmost importance that users with broken graphics > > drivers be able to access public-inbox instances and download > > patches from the terminal (which may be required to fix their > > graphics drivers). > > public-inbox makes the raw email easily available through a link. That's > what I usually use to download a patch from mailing list. f=f won't affect > this functionality. I hope users will read a thread before deciding to download and apply a patch, though (and not mindlessly downloading + applying patches w/o context). > > Right. Using 
 everywhere makes it easy to get a WYSIWYG
> > experience for everyone, regardless of which browser they use
> > (or even if it's just `curl $URL | $PAGER').
> 
> I might be trolling, but using preformatted text won't guarantee identical
> representation at client side, due to possible wrapping and truncation by a
> narrow-sized terminal. Feel free to ignore this point if feel so.

80 columns is the only width that has any sort of
standardization behind it.  Keeping messages <=80 columns ought
to ensure it's OK for anybody reviewing patches because that's
the most widely-standardized width for code.

Obviously, if somebody is using a 60-column display then
they're in for a hard time working on any project.

> > The goal of our HTML isn't to be an end-all, be-all UI;
> > but rather a way to bring a mutt-like experience to more users
> > (and maybe drive local MUA adoption in the process).
> 
> Speaking for myself, I'm mostly a read-only user of mailing lists. I would
> like to follow some mailing list discussions more easily on a phone browser.
> I expect f=f will improve the experience on phones (though such emails are
> not that common). Currently the web page is subject to automatic font size
> adjustment on phone browsers (called "font boosting" for mobile Chrome.
> haven't tried to find the origin of this name). For preformatted text it
> leads to ragged lines that are unpleasant to read.

Given the lack of f=f messages on mailing lists (and f=f being
actively discouraged); I doubt adding f=f to public-inbox would
make a difference to people reading messages on a phone.

Fwiw, the use of small phone displays is likely a passing phase.
I've seen some fold-out phones with larger displays, and
augmented reality glasses/contacts may become common one day.
(and I'll still carry an ancient laptop with a good keyboard)

> I still appreciate your work on public-inbox a lot. The web interface is
> intuitive to use, and the search function is really helpful for digging into
> the archive. Google seems to have given up on indexing mailing list archive
> pages in past five years.

Thanks again for the feedback.  Of course, it's not in any corporation's
interest to promote things they can't monetize.

> [2] https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v6.1/process/email-clients.html