From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id uNI/K2zLVWBnMAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:16:12 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id SLcuJ2zLVWCfFgAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:16:12 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17FDB1740F for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 11:16:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:42026 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lNYeP-0007Q4-ST for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 06:16:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59818) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lNYeI-0007Pp-Am for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 06:16:02 -0400 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:40013) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lNYeI-0004O0-29 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 06:16:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lNYeH-0005Zw-Tj for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 06:16:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#47253: network-manager shepherd services does not wait to be online Resent-From: raid5atemyhomework Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-guix@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:16:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 47253 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Mark H Weaver Cc: "47253@debbugs.gnu.org" <47253@debbugs.gnu.org> Received: via spool by 47253-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B47253.161623534621423 (code B ref 47253); Sat, 20 Mar 2021 10:16:01 +0000 Received: (at 47253) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-guix@gnu.org List-Id: Bug reports for GNU Guix List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "bug-Guix" Reply-to: raid5atemyhomework X-ACL-Warn: , raid5atemyhomework From: raid5atemyhomework via Bug reports for GNU Guix X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1616235372; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:resent-cc: resent-from:resent-sender:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=IPVdyXvStwEprm6ON3QdN8WiursFHENEbiUuPD5m35k=; 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dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=protonmail.com header.s=protonmail header.b=S090d8hf; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of bug-guix-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bug-guix-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 17FDB1740F X-Spam-Score: -2.91 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: k7dxFZB8mJBf Hello MArk, > [] I'll note, however, that merely waiting up to 30 seconds (orwhatever t= imeout you choose) is not, in itself, a robust solution. What > happens if the network is down for more than 30 seconds? What if it > goes down after 'nm-online' checks, but before the dependent service has > finished starting? The sysad has to go look at what is wrong and fix it, then restart services= manually as needed. Presumably the sysad is competent enough to care for = the hardware so this doesn't occur (too often). What this avoids is if everything in the hardware setup (cables, NIC, route= r, hub, router config, etc.) is 100% fine but a reboot of the system for an= y reason causes services starting at boot to fail to start properly. Compe= tent sysads will put alarm bells if an important daemon is not running. Bu= t if such alarm bells keep getting set off during a server restart, it gets= annoying and makes the sysad pay less attention to alarm bells that *are* = important enough for them to check the hardware setup. So the common 30-second timeout used in SystemD is a fairly good compromise= anyway. Probably your alarm bells checks things hourly or so, and exiting= after 30 seconds allows other services (e.g. a direct X server on the serv= er, perhaps?) to start as well so a sysad can sit at the console and work t= he issue directly. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for most things. > Also, if a service fails to handle lack of network > when it starts, it makes me wonder whether it properly handles a > prolonged network failure while its running. It seems to me that the > only fully satisfactory solution is for each service to robustly handle > network failures at any time, although I acknowledge that workarounds > are needed in the meantime. Indeed, and the Guix substituter for example is fairly brittle against inte= rnet connectivity problems, not just at the local networking level, but fro= m issues from the local network connection all the way to ci.guix.gnu.org. Thanks raid5atemyhomework