From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id cNUOKR57S2EOTQAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:51:10 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id qPCcJB57S2GRdAAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:51:10 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDCF51293D for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:51:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44348 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT7Km-0001wH-LM for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:51:08 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46516) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT6rU-0004dC-Mz; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:20:54 -0400 Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.24]:45899) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT6rP-0007uH-1h; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:20:50 -0400 Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A653200EAD; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:20:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=K8A9Aw S/bz4dq1S7anBxGNFJWi7GWIexqtlgkNgVcH4=; b=GI+SxCP5ED7C/oFlNrMav2 g+Ndjkuwr5YTNoK0B6LhrbQ+PYVFYKYT7q6Go06fA52Hn73BATYmoUoBmuIrBERT EkUXunYntJ89lfYhHQb5usHXkC/NGUVoNFVSsaum9vb/j6XjEYl4kPJbfF0zKcjz jh6V10TiW7OAcG2v3xGaWloyo2SjTKVqSqN0o06P0ZURVWRfI+MezuOKmxSChaza pfz/cQAkKIfpVQF8nRIIDiSGJEy5Q453PwJe5ck4VlICuvW9T2Z8nDiwkZf6MVys X+hK70+lw8K56CLZaETpr3XS1EksngphQUWyKc7IwgScXieUSLBSrwZr3/Y12duQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvtddrudeijedguddvfecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefhvffujghffffkgggtsehttdertddttdejnecuhfhrohhmpefmohhnrhgr ugcujfhinhhsvghnuceokhhonhhrrggurdhhihhnshgvnhestghnrhhsrdhfrheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvddtheejteekleeugfehfffgtdejtdejgfehueekgeduieetkefh gfduveduvddunecuffhomhgrihhnpegrrhgthhhivhgvshdqohhuvhgvrhhtvghsrdhfrh enucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehkohhn rhgrugdrhhhinhhsvghnsegtnhhrshdrfhhr X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:20:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Konrad Hinsen To: Katherine Cox-Buday Subject: Re: [Spam:]Re: =?utf-8?B?4oCcV2hhdOKAmXM=?= in a =?utf-8?Q?packag?= =?utf-8?Q?e=E2=80=9D?= In-Reply-To: <87r1dgy7og.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87wnnbpgnp.fsf@inria.fr> <875yutwuij.fsf@gmail.com> <87r1dgy7og.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:20:27 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: softfail client-ip=64.147.123.24; envelope-from=konrad.hinsen@cnrs.fr; helo=wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , guix-science@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1632336670; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=K8A9AwS/bz4dq1S7anBxGNFJWi7GWIexqtlgkNgVcH4=; b=APkWjalXKzjlJ/zTFHxGyUvlrj4uuVNacZb3g2b8vmO98J073sq/rZdVzxRZqXh+R1E/TM xSnnrKIhWIPA60XGRua6kR9v6BTdKNsEk5BBhgu4E9J6BJj7ZG5xixuEtLHIdsor+0rBJK 2wsBMzFpS60FycWuo2l2NPhDJJ8rMaNXjuj403Qs/fXgCCBcT65MDspwdAnj+Z6ftbkI8s EkR/YilvJWfTUafWanmaR+b5lM7Z6r+T0Dhyrlqr4t4MUMgeHJHoamcBSDW1uVi2a8uXOp APivn4Kn3IHYrmonZM9mG9/pneMZD3fKMNfK/vw3ADT2Ej0uryY+x6/EoufZvA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1632336670; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=GBSixnoW1qLpuddWoDBQc/+sgz9FWk9G1JKmB3OK6oSv7PbEu9Pciy2ATy6Z+RBkRvCmTF WyNOTLBno38zKrTMEZvbNUe6ZqZHNaQ+VOd+DV+T3nK1aTvyaQU59+dWz/5VXAA5WV7iMe w8CTt0UdDLy8nCGXA4AgaQCz7/EHLHL1YIgtoxWknRF2mRzmkHq0oNPnJPBMIQLbmlCVxl sbgEtUpFqo7FZI2/dtSttRMrV9DceN0qz9T2aNxJxEKjAK/CU/OdgiiXdOdoDH6vWDI4EI BSdGlPhLwU42gix+Iz4q1ZGBZ1m8Yn+P7JWeVeTwJh9OgLikGBCQ3ofZSaV/gg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=GI+SxCP5; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 0.11 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=GI+SxCP5; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CDCF51293D X-Spam-Score: 0.11 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: LNGs41l+ouE7 Katherine Cox-Buday writes: > As we've seen these past years with COVID-19 and the world's supply > chains, efficiency has some kind of inverse relationship with > robustness. If you go too far down the path of efficiency, you are not > very flexible, and you're building sand castles. That's exactly what I have seen happening in scientific software for a while : https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02117588 > It's for this reason I appreciate having "robust" software underneath > my sand castle. At least I know only so much can crumble :) 100 % agreement! > I want to be careful here in what I suggest. I think it is very > important that Guix remain a bastion of robust software with very high > standards. I don't want to see the PyPi PyTorch packages of the world Me neither. My suggestion was for support in Guix the tool, not Guix the software distribution. People can/should package their sand castles in their private channels. > So with your example: make it really easy to transform that PyPi > package into a terrible Guix primitive of some kind, but don't let me > commit it to Guix proper. I trust our maintainer team to not let this happen. > Maybe interactive software that introspects how a package > is written and behaves at runtime (in a container?) and utilizes the > homoiconicity of scheme to suggest modifications of the package, or > next steps. E.g. expand the linter to suggest things like That sounds interesting! > Speaking of industry, I don't think we leverage software to build software enough. Definitely not. > And by the way, none of those ideas would be possible if Guix weren't > such a robust and sane ecosystem. Exactly. We can discuss (and more) adding sloppy stuff on top of Guix, but it wouldn't work the other way round. "Jonathan McHugh" writes: > Your focus regarding a transition from exploratory to robust is > important (though may have equal significance in the other > direction?). Not equal as I see it, but yes, it matters as well, for dragging a stable package out int the open again for significant improvements. > Would security experts have (understandable) criteria to prioritise > choices for 'robust corridors' within an ecosystem of sourcefiles and > encapsulated blobs? I'd love to hear from security experts too! Konrad.