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Mon, 17 Jul 2023 13:41:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2023 17:41:33 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lendvai.name; s=protonmail3; t=1689615697; x=1689874897; bh=GZ/2zYq6jeR0cC71XSHVauByT8cLdbalHi0aa6zZGcE=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=dm/HbLRji9SKH+IXiB7IOvl0HBsmWm4oPds6WLR5pnmDMkevGC54sDAIRp6hiyDZx dED9xOqdhqSRlHD2cxdI2M79oKo5+qLZq68HdunHsNixQjdQHHJemSOSExBY52VU0a mckfAjxYooibJbt3Z7n6g1JYWifXO8Hm1zChSEnxoF/Ovf84B1Fh5GMdF9rFptwGiR M0xQr5Vx9ltRHPrGbfz0Ji9nQOCNt/umK4LJxP6TQ2rAAKFZoZSDS1QRUPrvMw27XW jz9eBLYvDg883cjGZsuubzfYSfJ0d5d13nElTYVs/D4/DJgcm+N+b7vfkQx3a23YGh 7aoPWlBIN7m2Q== To: Csepp From: Attila Lendvai Cc: Pjotr Prins , Felix Lechner , Robby Zambito , Sarthak Shah , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: A Forum for Guix Users Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <871qh7tnn1.fsf@riseup.net> References: <87sf9r6gmp.fsf@robbyzambito.me> <20230716103340.iy2ton3oxcc4kuqc@thebird.nl> <871qh7tnn1.fsf@riseup.net> Feedback-ID: 28384833:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.17; envelope-from=attila@lendvai.name; helo=mail-4317.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Spam-Score: -4.10 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E1AED53CAC X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.10 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx0.migadu.com X-TUID: McEeZKQRtrie > Like I've mentioned on fedi before, advocates of Lispy languages tend to > talk a lot about what's possible with the language, but the truth is > that the actual tooling that matters simply isn't very good, and having > an S-expression based syntax doesn't magically make writing the kinds of > refactoring tools that Java developers have been enjoying for 10+ years > significantly easier. > For that we need good static analysis, and unbounded dynamism and too > much syntax magic makes that more difficult. > At the very least I want to be able to rename variables across the whole > project and jump to definitions reliably. i came to Common Lisp from that world, and i don't miss those tools one bit= . those refactoring tools in the java world feel so useful exactly because of= the linguistic inability to formally express abstractions in the language.= when lisp is used properly (which includes discipline while naming abstrac= tions!) then one doesn't miss those tools. a related quote that captures this sentiment: =E2=80=9C[Design] Patterns mean "I have run out of language."=E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Rich Hickey but i agree that there's plenty of room for improvement in the lisp tooling= , even for just Guile + Geiser to catch up with CL + Slime. and i also agree that the learning curve is way too steep with Emacs + lisp= tools. ultiamtely, i think it's worth it, but it does require quite some d= etermination and frustration tolerance. > ps.: As far as I can tell, the Lisps with good IDEs are image based, not > source based, that's why they have an easier time doing metaprogramming, > because the runtime helps a lot. But an image based system is not > exactly in line with Guix's goal of reproducibility. all lisps are image based in the sense that they are a VM once the source h= as been loaded... no? but, unfortunately, all (non-obsolete) lisps use flat= text files to represent the source code. java tools turn that flat text so= urce code into a graph and work on the graph, and does this text-graph-text= conversion transparently for the user. but it's only possible to do this conversion in languages that have a relat= ively little degree of freedom... which translates to less freedom to expre= ss abstractions... which in turn translates to a greater need for refactori= ng tools. again, i most agree with you. what i wanted to express is that there's much= more to this topic. --=20 =E2=80=A2 attila lendvai =E2=80=A2 PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- =E2=80=9CIt's surprising how many persons go through life without ever reco= gnizing that their feelings toward other people are largely determined by t= heir feelings toward themselves, and if you're not comfortable within yours= elf, you can't be comfortable with others.=E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Sydney J. Harris