Guix pronunciation

Guix pronunciation

[mikadoZero]

Doing this duckduckgo site search:  `geeks
site:https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/` gives me only one match.  Which
is footnote 1 of section 1 Introduction of the manual.  I do not know of
anywhere else where the pronunciation of Guix is explicitly stated.

I would like to know what other think about making the pronunciation of
Guix obvious to anyone who visits the website.  The reasoning for this is
because the pronunciation of Guix as "geeks" is not intuitive.  I
think a lot of people will assume it is pronounced some other way.  For
example "gwixs" or "gooixs".  I was not sure how to say Guix before
watching a talk on Guix.  It is also easy for people to miss that single
footnote in the manual on how to pronounce Guix.

I think the confusion around the pronunciation of GIF would probably be
a worst case scenario.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Interchange_Format#Pronunciation_of_GIF

Here are two projects that have non obvious pronunciation that address
this issue directly on their project homepage:

https://asciinema.org/
http://www.lighttpd.net/


I also wanted to know what people think about the "geeks" pronunciation
and how it may impact adoption of Guix as it continues to grow long term.  Maybe
someday becoming as popular as Debian, macOS or Windows are today
(wishful thinking).  For example what if Linux kernel had actually been
called Freax.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux#Naming
Would it have negatively impacted adoption of the kernel.

Yes Freax and "geeks" are fun.
On the other hand branding is important.

Just to make my bias clear.  I am not a fan of pronouncing Guix "geeks"
and find myself thinking of deliberately mispronouncing Guix as "gwixs"
or spelling out the letters G U I X when talking to people about Guix.

I am curious what others think about these two related points.

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

Hullo!

Now I personally think ‘Guix’ looks and sounds good (not fine), 
and our logo is positively stunning, and damn professional too. 
If that makes me biased, so be it ;-)

mikadoZero wrote:
> I also wanted to know what people think about the "geeks"
> pronunciation and how it may impact adoption of Guix as it 
> continues
> to grow long term.  Maybe someday becoming as popular as Debian,
> macOS or Windows are today (wishful thinking).  For example what 
> if
> Linux kernel had actually been called Freax. […] Would it have
> negatively impacted adoption of the kernel.

I really don't think so.  ‘Linux’ is the fellow's name with an X 
on the end.  It's as much of a anti-marketing joke as ‘Freax’ was 
(or GNU or Guix for that matter).  The only reason it seems more 
familiar is because, well, it is.

And (honest question): do we even care?  Such a stupid reason to 
shoot yourself in the foot with an inferior package manager.

> Yes Freax and "geeks"

[and “Linux”]

> are fun.   On the other hand branding is important.

You wrote this as a contradiction but I don't see one.

The world's most valuable and evil company was once called 
‘Google’.  Koooky!

> Just to make my bias clear.  I am not a fan of pronouncing Guix
> "geeks" and find myself thinking of deliberately mispronouncing
> Guix as "gwixs" or spelling out the letters G U I X when talking
> to people about Guix.

That's really unfortunate.

Kind regards,

T G-R

GUIX® is a trademark of Express Logic, Inc.  All other brands or 
product names are the property of their respective holders.

Re: Guix pronunciation

[mikadoZero]

Tobias Geerinckx-Rice writes:

> Hullo!
>
> Now I personally think ‘Guix’ looks and sounds good (not fine), and
> our logo is positively stunning, and damn professional too. If that
> makes me biased, so be it ;-)
>
> mikadoZero wrote:
>> I also wanted to know what people think about the "geeks"
>> pronunciation and how it may impact adoption of Guix as it continues
>> to grow long term.  Maybe someday becoming as popular as Debian,
>> macOS or Windows are today (wishful thinking).  For example what if
>> Linux kernel had actually been called Freax. […] Would it have
>> negatively impacted adoption of the kernel.
>
> I really don't think so.  ‘Linux’ is the fellow's name with an X on
> the end.  It's as much of a anti-marketing joke as ‘Freax’ was (or GNU
> or Guix for that matter).  The only reason it seems more familiar is
> because, well, it is.
>
> And (honest question): do we even care?  Such a stupid reason to shoot
> yourself in the foot with an inferior package manager.
>
>> Yes Freax and "geeks"
>
> [and “Linux”]
>
>> are fun.   On the other hand branding is important.
>
> You wrote this as a contradiction but I don't see one.
>
> The world's most valuable and evil company was once called ‘Google’.
> Koooky!

Guix is different from Linux or Google because pronouncing it as
"geeks" gives it a negative connotation and sentiment.  See below.

>
>> Just to make my bias clear.  I am not a fan of pronouncing Guix
>> "geeks" and find myself thinking of deliberately mispronouncing
>> Guix as "gwixs" or spelling out the letters G U I X when talking
>> to people about Guix.
>
> That's really unfortunate.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> T G-R
>
> GUIX® is a trademark of Express Logic, Inc.  All other brands or
> product names are the property of their respective holders.

In my initial message I should have explained why I am not a fan of Guix
pronounced "geeks".  It is because the pronunciation is the same as the
plural of the word geek. The word geek has an ambiguous definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek  When Guix is pronounced "geeks"
there are negative connotation.

The current participants in the Guix community have a self selection
bias by using alpha or beta software.  This could shows itself through a
focus on the positive definition of geek.  However I am alone in
perceiving the negative connotations and sentiment of the word geek.

The vaderSentiment project on GitHub has sentiment scores for words
which you can see in it's vader_lexicon.txt.  Both geeks and geek have
negative sentiment.

Re: Guix pronunciation

[George Clemmer]

mikadoZero <mikadozero@yandex.com> writes:

> In my initial message I should have explained why I am not a fan of Guix
> pronounced "geeks".  It is because the pronunciation is the same as the
> plural of the word geek. The word geek has an ambiguous definition.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek  When Guix is pronounced "geeks"
> there are negative connotation.
>
> The current participants in the Guix community have a self selection
> bias by using alpha or beta software.  This could shows itself through a
> focus on the positive definition of geek.  However I am alone in
> perceiving the negative connotations and sentiment of the word geek.

Not alone. I have used Guix for 3+ years. For quite some time I thought
it was "gix" which seemed fine to me. Eventually I discovered it is
"geeks". I am sorry to say this seems like a sick "inside joke" to me.

Unfortunately it is difficult to have a productive discussion of the
subject: Those working on Guix may be offended by what feels like
criticism.  And those turned-off by geeks have probably already
self-un-selected from the project.

FWIW, I have mentioned my use of something called "geeks" to a few
professional friends. Each thought it weird that I would want to put
effort into something with this name. It just doesn't sound serious to
them.

So I share your concern. IMO calling Guix "geeks" is unfortunate.  I
fear it will adversely impact Guix' acceptance and growth.

- George

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

Hullo again,

mikadoZero wrote:
> Doing this duckduckgo site search:  `geeks
> site:https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/` gives me only one 
> match.  Which
> is footnote 1 of section 1 Introduction of the manual.  I do not 
> know of
> anywhere else where the pronunciation of Guix is explicitly 
> stated.
>
> I would like to know what other think about making the 
> pronunciation of
> Guix obvious to anyone who visits the website.

I think this is a good idea!

Kind regards,

T G-R

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

Tobias Geerinckx-Rice <somebody@not-sent-or-endorsed-by.tobias.gr>
skribis:

> mikadoZero wrote:
>> Doing this duckduckgo site search:  `geeks
>> site:https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/` gives me only one match.
>> Which
>> is footnote 1 of section 1 Introduction of the manual.  I do not
>> know of
>> anywhere else where the pronunciation of Guix is explicitly stated.
>>
>> I would like to know what other think about making the pronunciation
>> of
>> Guix obvious to anyone who visits the website.
>
> I think this is a good idea!

Yup, why not!

Though I think it’s no big deal: people who’ve seen talks or have read
the manual know how to pronounce it, others may pronounce it in their
own way, but that’s fine.  (Think of all those who pronounce TeX like
“teks” after all those years.  :-))

As for those wondering why: “Guix” is initially just the contraction of
Guile + Nix.

Ludo’.

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Laura Lazzati]

Hi again!
Yes someone misses her community ;)

> As for those wondering why: “Guix” is initially just the contraction of
> Guile + Nix.
Thank you for the explanation. The person I met interested in at least
playing whith Guix told me that was thinking of both Guix and Nix, and
I was asked before about the differences. Is it in the manual? Because
I don't remember reading it.  Maybe it could be added, before the
pronunciation, WDYT?

Regards with mate :)
Laura

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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> As for those wondering why: “Guix” is initially just the contraction of
> Guile + Nix.

Now I'm wondering how to pronounce Guile... :D

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: Guix pronunciation

[Laura Lazzati]

> Now I'm wondering how to pronounce Guile... :D
Don't know if you are kidding ;), but even not being a native English
speaker  it was quite obvious for me :) Or I ponounce it badly, don't
know.

Regards :)

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Laura,

Laura Lazzati <laura.lazzati.15@gmail.com> skribis:

>> As for those wondering why: “Guix” is initially just the contraction of
>> Guile + Nix.
> Thank you for the explanation. The person I met interested in at least
> playing whith Guix told me that was thinking of both Guix and Nix, and
> I was asked before about the differences. Is it in the manual? Because
> I don't remember reading it.  Maybe it could be added, before the
> pronunciation, WDYT?

Nix and Guix have technical similarities, in the same sense that Debian
and Fedora have technical similarities, but the projects have different
goals, priorities, commitments, and processes.  Guix is committed to
user freedom and to building software from source, for instance.

Nix and Guix have also significant technical differences arising from
the use, in Guix, of a single general-purpose language for everything,
with embedded domain-specific languages (EDSLs) as needed.  That, in
turn, makes the system very hackable and extensible, and that’s what
makes it easy to write several UIs (CLI, Emacs, web), simple UIs, new
tools around Guix like ‘guix pack’ or the Guix Workflow Language, etc.

I wrote about the initial vision regarding the programming language
approach in <https://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.4584.pdf>.  Ricardo wrote a more
up-to-date and more comprehensive answer on HN:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18910683>.

Should we write this more prominently somewhere?  Probably!  :-)

Ludo’.

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Laura Lazzati]

Bonjour Ludo! :)

> Should we write this more prominently somewhere?  Probably!  :-)
Thank you for the explanation, I guess I read the first link before
from somewhere, but what I was asking was if since people are
discussing if the name is appropriate, maybe the Guile + Nix could be
added, like "it is pronounced like geeks, but it comes from..."
Maybe, in those cultures where a geek is seen badly or may be seen not
professional, or could make people not become a contributor - here I
come promoting ;) - or whatever, know how to pronounce it but where it
comes from too. IMHO I also agree it is a good Idea adding the
similarities and differences.

Regards :)
Laura

Re: Guix pronunciation

[mikadoZero]

Laura Lazzati writes:
> ... The person I met interested in at least
> playing whith Guix told me that was thinking of both Guix and Nix, and
> I was asked before about the differences. Is it in the manual? Because
> I don't remember reading it.  ...

I just searched through the manual for Nix and it looks like the closest
thing to to covering differences between Nix and Guix is "15
Acknowledgments".  Although it does not cover differences and is just an
acknowledgment.

I was just reading the README in the Guix repository and found a section
called Guix & Nix that does covers differences between them.

Re: Guix pronunciation

[sirgazil]

Hi, mikadoZero,


El 10/03/19 a las 11:13 a. m., mikadoZero escribió:
> Doing this duckduckgo site search:  `geeks
> site:https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/` gives me only one match.  Which
> is footnote 1 of section 1 Introduction of the manual.  I do not know of
> anywhere else where the pronunciation of Guix is explicitly stated.
> 
> I would like to know what other think about making the pronunciation of
> Guix obvious to anyone who visits the website.  The reasoning for this is
> because the pronunciation of Guix as "geeks" is not intuitive.  I
> think a lot of people will assume it is pronounced some other way.  For
> example "gwixs" or "gooixs".  I was not sure how to say Guix before
> watching a talk on Guix.  It is also easy for people to miss that single
> footnote in the manual on how to pronounce Guix.


When there are more introductory videos about Guix in the home page, I 
think the pronunciation will be easier to discover.

If it is not enough with the videos, I think one could do as Wikipedia 
does: adding a speaker icon which plays an audio file with the 
pronunciation of a word being defined.


[...]


> I also wanted to know what people think about the "geeks" pronunciation
> and how it may impact adoption of Guix as it continues to grow long term.  Maybe
> someday becoming as popular as Debian, macOS or Windows are today
> (wishful thinking).  For example what if Linux kernel had actually been
> called Freax.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux#Naming
> Would it have negatively impacted adoption of the kernel.
> 
> Yes Freax and "geeks" are fun.
> On the other hand branding is important.
> 
> Just to make my bias clear.  I am not a fan of pronouncing Guix "geeks"
> and find myself thinking of deliberately mispronouncing Guix as "gwixs"
> or spelling out the letters G U I X when talking to people about Guix.
> 
> I am curious what others think about these two related points.


I don't see much problem with the relation to the term "geek". At least 
in my experience, I don't remember disapproving or derogative uses of it.

Also where I live, in South America, in the Aburrá Valley, The term 
"geek" is used in its English form by some people to describe themselves 
as people who are very interested in technology and its specifics.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.io/

Re: Guix pronunciation

[mikadoZero]

sirgazil writes:

> Hi, mikadoZero,
>
>
> El 10/03/19 a las 11:13 a. m., mikadoZero escribió:
>> Doing this duckduckgo site search:  `geeks
>> site:https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/` gives me only one match.  Which
>> is footnote 1 of section 1 Introduction of the manual.  I do not know of
>> anywhere else where the pronunciation of Guix is explicitly stated.
>>
>> I would like to know what other think about making the pronunciation of
>> Guix obvious to anyone who visits the website.  The reasoning for this is
>> because the pronunciation of Guix as "geeks" is not intuitive.  I
>> think a lot of people will assume it is pronounced some other way.  For
>> example "gwixs" or "gooixs".  I was not sure how to say Guix before
>> watching a talk on Guix.  It is also easy for people to miss that single
>> footnote in the manual on how to pronounce Guix.
>
>
> When there are more introductory videos about Guix in the home page, I
> think the pronunciation will be easier to discover.
>
> If it is not enough with the videos, I think one could do as Wikipedia
> does: adding a speaker icon which plays an audio file with the
> pronunciation of a word being defined.
>

I like how the Guix website does not have any JavaScript on it.  This
makes it accessible to terminal browsers and the eww browser in Emacs.
It is good to accommodate these non JavaScript browser as they help
people deal with: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html

I hope that when video and audio are being added to the Guix website
that terminal browsers are kept in mind. 

> [...]
>
>
>> I also wanted to know what people think about the "geeks" pronunciation
>> and how it may impact adoption of Guix as it continues to grow long term.  Maybe
>> someday becoming as popular as Debian, macOS or Windows are today
>> (wishful thinking).  For example what if Linux kernel had actually been
>> called Freax.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux#Naming
>> Would it have negatively impacted adoption of the kernel.
>>
>> Yes Freax and "geeks" are fun.
>> On the other hand branding is important.
>>
>> Just to make my bias clear.  I am not a fan of pronouncing Guix "geeks"
>> and find myself thinking of deliberately mispronouncing Guix as "gwixs"
>> or spelling out the letters G U I X when talking to people about Guix.
>>
>> I am curious what others think about these two related points.
>
>
> I don't see much problem with the relation to the term "geek". At
> least in my experience, I don't remember disapproving or derogative
> uses of it.
>
> Also where I live, in South America, in the Aburrá Valley, The term
> "geek" is used in its English form by some people to describe
> themselves as people who are very interested in technology and its
> specifics.

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Laura Lazzati]

Hi!

> Also where I live, in South America, in the Aburrá Valley, The term
> "geek" is used in its English form by some people to describe themselves
> as people who are very interested in technology and its specifics.
Another South American :)
As regards the name, I have always pronounced it like geeks without
even realizing the same pronunciation until  I read it.
I think it is a nice name, and I agree that people here use the word
not in a negative form, a geek is a person that is a huge fan of
technology, I don't feel it is bad, it is not offensive for me at all,
or unprofessional, but if I had not read that, I would have never
associated it.  Maybe you should remove the footnote :)

Regards :)

Re: Guix pronunciation

[L p R n d n]

Hello

mikadoZero <mikadozero@yandex.com> writes:

> Doing this duckduckgo site search:  `geeks
> site:https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/` gives me only one match.  Which
> is footnote 1 of section 1 Introduction of the manual.  I do not know of
> anywhere else where the pronunciation of Guix is explicitly stated.
>
> I would like to know what other think about making the pronunciation of
> Guix obvious to anyone who visits the website.  The reasoning for this is
> because the pronunciation of Guix as "geeks" is not intuitive.  I
> think a lot of people will assume it is pronounced some other way.  For
> example "gwixs" or "gooixs".  I was not sure how to say Guix before
> watching a talk on Guix.  It is also easy for people to miss that single
> footnote in the manual on how to pronounce Guix.
>
> I think the confusion around the pronunciation of GIF would probably be
> a worst case scenario.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Interchange_Format#Pronunciation_of_GIF
>
> Here are two projects that have non obvious pronunciation that address
> this issue directly on their project homepage:
>
> https://asciinema.org/
> http://www.lighttpd.net/
>

I understand your concern but in my opinion, Guix doesn't really need to
enforce or be protective regarding a particular pronunciation. It's an
international and multicultural project, we all more than probably don't
have the same accent and wont't ever pronounce it the same way and I
think it's fine. :)
If someone asks for the correct way to pronounce Guix, IMHO "However you
wish" is ok and if a user needs more, the footnote in the manual can give
some "historical" insights.
I feel like it's more aligned with what Guix is. (in opposition to what
a company would do)
But, really, if the need arises, I don't mind.
Just giving my two cents.

Good evening,

Lprndn

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Leo Famulari]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 12:13:55PM -0400, mikadoZero wrote:
> I think the confusion around the pronunciation of GIF would probably be
> a worst case scenario.

Non-techies rarely discuss JPEGs or PNGs, while 'GIF' is a cultural
phenomenon.

How to pronounce GIF? Everyone has an opinion on this and it does not
require any technical knowledge.

'GIF' has come to mean 'a short moving image on a computer'. I think
it's a great success. A harmless controversy can be endearing :)

Re: Guix pronunciation

[Leo Famulari]

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On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 12:13:55PM -0400, mikadoZero wrote:
> I think the confusion around the pronunciation of GIF would probably be
> a worst case scenario.

Non-techies rarely discuss JPEGs or PNGs, while GIFs are a cultural
phenomenon.

How to pronounce 'GIF'? Anyone can weigh in, and it doesn't require any
technical knowledge.

After 30 years, GIF has come to mean 'a brief moving image on a
computer'. It's a tremendous success! A harmless controversy can be
endearing :) I can't think of a single downside for GIF.

On the other hand, I think the most important property of a name is that
it does not change. Google indexes written words, not pronunciation. A
long tail of articles and discussion of Guix is extremely valuable.

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