From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Quiliro_Ord=C3=B3=C3=B1ez?= Subject: Re: Reminder to remain civil Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:08:27 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20191009065352.GU8197@protected.rcdrun.com> <1c9dc59c-0594-6921-73e8-b173e558b5c3@vapaa.xyz> <20191010023714.GK20430@protected.rcdrun.com> <20191010164403.rueixfpsv3duntwz@uptimegirl> <87h84gi6ja.fsf@elephly.net> <87zhi61tq7.fsf@zete.tk> <87wodagy9q.fsf@elephly.net> <3cd972f08625dde233dcfe4c7e9791f8@riseup.net> <87wod8l89n.fsf@elephly.net> <485896379123a5160bb1b4115465ca1d@riseup.net> <87v9srlqok.fsf@elephly.net> <20191014215242.25e5c378@merlin.browniehive.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51426) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iKDCI-00059d-Dy for help-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:08:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKDCG-0004Wo-Qe for help-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:08:29 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:45416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iKDCG-0004WL-Eg for help-guix@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:08:28 -0400 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46sgNq3dXfzDrSN for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46sgNq2cYRzJtW3 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:08:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20191014215242.25e5c378@merlin.browniehive.net> List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+gcggh-help-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" To: help-guix@gnu.org El 2019-10-14 14:52, Tonton escribi=C3=B3: > Quiliro, this is not about censorship. No one is taking away your right= to > express yourself. This channel however is not public, even though it co= mes > close. This channel also has a set topic. For me, it _is_ about censorship. If there is censorship, no amount of freedom on other areas is worthy. How can the policy of a a group be off-topic for the group? Censorship in this mailing list is the policy or it is not. Avoiding to be clear or to soften its impact by giving justifications or changing its name for moderation, only makes matters worse. > This is just another drop in the ocean. No one will fix anything while = the > storm is raging. A feeling is not quenched by ignoring other people's feelings and values. The storm will calm quickly when all people's feelings are out in the open and an agreement is reached without impositions. We do not have to agree on everything, just the basic to carry on. Other alternatives will cause even more pain for everyone. Even the most productive and speedy work can be hindered by misunderstandings. > I think I can see where your anger stems from, it could be positive to > have somewhere to talk about the issues that have surfaced over the las= t week > or so, in addition to other similar things that come forth now and agai= n. For me, it all starts with the exclusion from the blog post and subsequent refusal to accept another point of view on an equal space. Then it was about how I found out about the strange goings regarding presumptions of nonfree software on the Guix repos and the admins not taking the matter seriously and rather avoiding to make all effort to find it and remove it. And now the threat to be censored is, for some, enough to avoid expressing themselves for fear of becoming ostracized and for others it is a humiliation. Free speech is one basic rights of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. If that is irrespected, there is nothing in this project but software. There would be no more freedom: speech or FSDG. My messages could have been avoided and I would have just thought about this and not expressed it. But for me, it is the right of the members of this list to know about my position, instead of receiving a blow from the back as has happened to others in the community lately. > At the same time I've been watching the list and seeing the behaviour f= rom > some of the participants in these discussions makes me doubt if it woul= d > bring anything other than more hatred and aggression. And that makes me > grieve. I think that aggression is on the mind of the hurt. If the target does not feel hurt, it causes little damage. A person can be angry and hurt. A person can try to cause damage. But the most damage can be only caused by the target herself. The blog post has caused more damage to Guix than any of the messages which expressed disagreement. > I hope you stop this fight, your energy is much needed elsewhere. Guix = needs > our cooperation and willingness to work together despite differences of > opinion. This is not a fight (at least for me). It is a desperate intent of saving Guix from being an unwelcome project. I agree there is a lot of energy consumption. But I think Guix deserves this right to self defense. Cooperation can only be attained by inclusion and mutual acceptance, instead of impositions. Those have been my intentions from the start of this problem. I have tried to be civil and respectful; not in a false, superficial and diplomatic way; but in a sincere and frank attitude. I hope this message is taken in that context. I don't think trust can be recovered after the previous attitudes from all sides. But we can at least cooperate separately, if we can reach an agreement. Happy hacking! Quiliro