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[109.90.125.150]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c29sm4158273ejj.149.2022.02.20.04.20.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Feb 2022 04:20:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:20:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.6.0 Subject: Re: Excessively energy-consuming software considered malware? Content-Language: en-US To: Maxime Devos , guix-devel@gnu.org References: <2067ba1e606855eace261fd0b0ae9721b369bbd5.camel@telenet.be> From: Taylan Kammer In-Reply-To: <2067ba1e606855eace261fd0b0ae9721b369bbd5.camel@telenet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::62b (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62b; envelope-from=taylan.kammer@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.659, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645359673; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=DjyPagyrEARInrDwmk8kOij7TLJ9BkQsbjbUxi0hmgw=; b=kJV4Aj56cQ0tMDsg3IT3w8O+UYW1tYPIS+QrNVSOK6pxWUhVh9CBGZBZrxrhjcjW2a8wf8 jQ9icIky3u8uLZdiTulYUF+ejerIt1GXZKhkqOv70pOqNsOr2QMb05YYYtf/N5jWZYNGOd g3oHl3g2tkg/BuBQx47lg+3CIC7KqCu26xQSK5QmSAd8Te/sdYM6d9MvzJkoizohVAbyPb 7gtv41uZWDK9kQeWw8mT3OfpaOwCqrtTkk83+ykEhRUJDDrQwHzO895PmTyEKsXK+tmI7n I/SMlxLJ3uG+DKoErvInn0NFrULLkwzFz9dJMTu7Gg5Hd4DHTaKsHwAgihaIGg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645359673; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=GSSdnHi7eyND9bfldNZc6yMLYVd3wrlYHkKATUINxW7rb1aHBxyYbl2Y13yF/unEh6j1mh jUfbTndP8dBvXUBZdPV/AKRwRcdgmOWpRuE9LTgYUASv3xoFTA/TEscoGu5ygonjQqPTuO vIYhdr6bZmftZG7Vv+PV7d8H8mRmn6Kyjf2juwW97wX6u5j6Mrn90GDyEf15ZZhgsxvzlu 7ZPfJNhuWk0ahrEch5EDYdDz+YJwWRDw+AQ5NWy/Ry+lNUg1irGFAGFXP5930myrsUQvEM UzkAFqzNB9rf6RmunTUr5DZa8kEF2htKEwkVGlbmBX84T4dAb1jJbeEsb9RL3A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=iLTo85sO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.83 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=iLTo85sO; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: F19492D543 X-Spam-Score: -8.83 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: OX56F8j5DN96 On 20.02.2022 11:05, Maxime Devos wrote: > > Guix has a policy against including malware[citation needed 2], and > furthering global warming[3] (and energy prices[4], if [3] is not bad > enough for you) seems rather bad behaviour to me. > > Would these miners be considered malware in Guix? > I'm not a fan of cryptocurrencies at all, but I don't like the idea of excluding software from Guix on the grounds that it's harmful in some indirect way. Malware is software that harms/exploits the user without their knowledge. The inefficiency of cryptocurrencies was never a secret, though people didn't think much about it; recently it's become widespread knowledge, so I think considering crypto miners to be malware is somewhat unreasonable. An example of actual malware would be a *hidden* crypto miner that sends the mined coins to the author of the software. If we're going to exclude software on grounds of it being used in harmful ways, I can already see people arguing that one should exclude software such as aircrack-ng for aiding in breaching into networks, or anonymity software like Tor because it aids perverts in sharing you-know-what or aids terrorists in planning attacks. Slippery slopes and all. One might argue that those pieces of software also have good uses, but the same could be argued about a crypto miner: perhaps I want to install one simply to study its operation to aide in some sort of research, maybe even research about its inherent inefficiency. Or maybe I want to devise a small-scale blockchain-based network for a niche use-case where the blockchain won't reach an unwieldy size or will be limited in lifetime. All in all, I think the baseline is that if something is software, and it respects the user's freedoms, it belongs in Guix. What do you think? I'm happy to have my mind changed. I've never used a crypto miner and continue to be disinterested in them so don't care about this particular case all that much, but the principle behind the reasoning bothers me somewhat. -- Taylan