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Thu, 31 Aug 2023 20:42:27 +0000 (UTC) Resent-From: wolf Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 22:42:27 +0200 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-To: guix-devel@gnu.org Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2023 17:27:15 +0200 From: wolf To: Julien Lepiller Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, Msavoritias , =?utf-8?B?Tmd1eeG7hW4=?= Gia Phong Subject: Re: Relaxing the restrictions for store item names Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Julien Lepiller , guix-devel@gnu.org, Msavoritias , =?utf-8?B?Tmd1eeG7hW4=?= Gia Phong References: <87il95gc27.fsf@disroot.org> <875y54zz2t.fsf@fannys.me> <87sf88yjhu.fsf@fannys.me> <87o7iwyhbh.fsf@fannys.me> <87jztkyglb.fsf@fannys.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rZv9AFjWbFGKTo41" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: none client-ip=37.205.8.62; envelope-from=ws@wolfsnet.cz; helo=wolfsden.cz X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 01 Sep 2023 05:22:50 -0400 X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -10.41 X-Spam-Score: -10.41 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9685738086 X-TUID: mJY8N++cmPeE --rZv9AFjWbFGKTo41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2023-08-24 12:21:24 +0200, Julien Lepiller wrote: > Le 24 ao=C3=BBt 2023 10:41:23 GMT+02:00, Msavoritias a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: > > > >What I am saying here is that: > >Its easy to see from our very US centric tech culture why everybody > >should just use ASCII because "This is how it is". But there is very > >little reasons why we shouldn't strive to be more inclusive of all > >cultures. > >Especially since nowadays where we have tools like Unicode that make our > >lives easier compared to US or nothing of 30-40 years ago. > >Just imagine how many good programmers we are missing because they don't > >want/can't learn English or don't have an ASCII keyboard. > > > >MSavoritias > > > >MSavoritias writes: > > > >> Nguy=E1=BB=85n Gia Phong writes: > >> > >>> [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > >>> On 2023-08-24 at 10:41+03:00, MSavoritias wrote: > >>>> Nguy=E1=BB=85n Gia Phong writes: > >>>> > I think the distinction must be made here between Guix and GuixSD. > >>>> > > >>>> > The packaging software should support full localization, > >>>> > but the distro should target the least common denominator. > >>>> > >>>> Depends what do we mean the "distro" here. > >>>> If I can pick arabic or chinese in the installation as a display > >>>> language and also I am able to use an arabic/chinese keyboard sounds > >>>> good to me. > >>> > >>> I meant GuixSD. I agree a distribution based on Guix Systems > >>> shouldn't meet any obstacle declaring packages with non-ASCII names. > >>> That you can type arabic and chinese and I can type hangul > >>> and most latin characters doesn't mean names having all of the above > >>> will be accessible to either of us or a third person. > >>> > >>> On 2023-08-24 at 10:41+03:00, MSavoritias wrote: > >>>> Regarding the initial question it was about package names to my > >>>> understanding. Specifically package names in the store to use unicode > >>>> characters. Which makes perfect sense there because some packages do= nt > >>>> use ascii names. > >>> > >>> It does, but as said before, whether this is desireable depends > >>> on the target audience. The purpose of API is to be used, > >>> i.e. it would be useless if even just one user can't type it. > >>> > >> Well we already have that don't we? What I mean is that ASCII names ca= nt > >> be typed by all keyboards layouts easily. So what you are saying alrea= dy > >> happens. Thats why I always have an ASCII layout available as a > >> secondary, next to my non ASCII. I bet every person that uses packages > >> with names other than english can add a seperate layout. > >> > >>> On 2023-08-24 at 10:41+03:00, MSavoritias wrote: > >>>> Regarding the broken install example, most (all?) base > >>>> packages use ASCII due to unix historical baggage. > >>>> So you shouldn't need to type anything non ASCII > >>>> to fix an install with only basic packages. > >>> > >>> Due to historical baggage, most (all?) keyboard layouts can fall > >>> back to ASCII alphanumerics. A broken install was given > >>> as the worst case; there's no reason any other packages > >>> should be less accessible based on the users' culture. > >>> > >> > >> But they are already aren't they? Because if I want to add a package > >> with the Greek alphabet or the Japanese one I have to transliterate it > >> into ASCII which is always going to be worse and people won't be able = to > >> find the package. Because they won't know we changed the name. Plus th= ey > >> will have to change the layout. Same as an ASCII user would have to do. > >> > >>> I suggest, in an international context such as GuixSD, > >>> for every package to have a ASCII name. It'd of course > >>> be better if a correctly written name is also available. > >>> > >> > >> So you propose two names? Sure if that can be done I don't see why not= =2E Either way not > >> having unicode names is a bug. Also to note: Most of the world speaks > >> Unicode. So its more for compatibility purposes i guess (?) rather than > >> to be "international". > >> > >> MSavoritias > > > > >=20 > There are two things discussed here: >=20 > 1. A restriction in the daemon prevents using unicode in store item names. >=20 > I think this is an issue worth fixing, as it would allow users to define = their own store items more easily. For instance, I might want to make a fil= e with non-ascii name a file-like item, eg. >=20 > (local-file "fond d'=C3=A9cran.jpg") Out of curiosity, do you have an idea how would the list of allowed charact= ers look like? Anything except / and \0? Or something more restrictive? >=20 > 2. Naming policy for packages in the Guix channel >=20 > I don't think we should distribute packages that have non-ascii character= s in their names. Of course I don't know all keyboards that exist out there= , but I don't think you can find a programmer that can't type an ascii char= acter, or a guix user that can't at least type "guix" in their terminal. >=20 > For discoverability, we could add the real non-ascii name in the package = description. >=20 --=20 There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. --rZv9AFjWbFGKTo41 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEt4NJs4wUfTYpiGikL7/ufbZ/wakFAmTra1MACgkQL7/ufbZ/ wanSuQ/8DujKd/DoMqsF27HhQ0Fx/ya1qt04ApN67JOWmf2t/ByA4U5EuSeLqEKI i8xhOwI9o9nwPBr/qiKr/BIy8MpqU0S2EZr15xKfU5x9juyNuJABF28cbwr9pQfR XSAz1tsxPxABWg8Mk5bEm+RIrP/TM8U0ls08j48hnXNbA4tZGR/rVzMC2/6BObq2 s2iSEHBcHLh2iYHTNWdGIEhcIpuHWIzgZ4SWW5OfbG8bqY0QAF3LrrKIYIpo47UH YszVu5Kx+7RxGjx32AhT2jSzRMi+CXUHmJjiEF9l5V4koQ/NGNdMbD9+zEr2mEZx itlYWpR6PX6Ei2b4/QcpljG6OV8ybB9/pX+JIeNTjCzcRJiYh5a/KQPJt8sU0Chb K+IZUzOYwqKdcHhcq5/a576ZQG+uttcizOAd9SMS48g3PGOfGCkPG06exIUYij/R sWr2qE8I2ptRIFYLF6Y8aPGkm9fbF4KXvZqbhac80VDlkfuh9vTspQgKz8NDSCEn wb4eGNvApbbhgmoYUXGaG+0o61IkBSeSlWefeE42e96mdjQmksoPbVO8KwAwPS5s 9ugYSRfg0PuXAW+Ifb2j4ndPlkO66HPDmu3wWuNzgLJdHr66qv1xG7SHVGnn/0H8 Aw5VN/P6ybyRY2CWgDu2IneLeZDoeuKqFYQG1B2m8hNHRcGsebA= =ku/7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rZv9AFjWbFGKTo41--