From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: wisdomlight@protonmail.com Subject: Re: How to present Guix to a wider audience Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 15:57:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <878smq41kg.fsf@ambrevar.xyz> <874kwyp9hi.fsf@ambrevar.xyz> <87blr5w0x7.fsf@ambrevar.xyz> <16faa4e8277.129e885d565438.6999666921160208292@zoho.com> Reply-To: wisdomlight@protonmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46898) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1itCwr-0006Gn-JE for help-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 10:57:15 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1itCwp-0004vF-Fu for help-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 10:57:13 -0500 Received: from mail1.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.18]:11700) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1itCwo-0004uA-RN for help-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jan 2020 10:57:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+gcggh-help-guix=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" To: =?UTF-8?Q?Todor_Kondi=C4=87?= Cc: "help-guix\\\\@gnu.org" , "sirgazil@zoho.com" Having worked with Guix for number of days with some issues - some of my ow= n makings.... I cannot see how i can say to my grandmother install guix. for the simplest reason that i found it very hard to find the software that= i needed plus the software i needed if it was not on the guix store/farm w= as very difficult to understand how to install with chnnels etc. So I am not sure about recommending Guix to beginners. Sherab Just like an experience in a dream Everything I now enjoy Will become a mere recollection For what has past will not be seen again Sent from ProtonMail, encrypted email based in Switzerland. Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Sunday, 19 January 2020 11:03, Todor Kondi=C4=87 wrote: > =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original = Message =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 > On Wednesday, 15 January 2020 18:44, sirgazil sirgazil@zoho.com wrote: > > > Hi, Pierre > > ---- On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 03:59:00 -0500 Pierre Neidhardt mail@ambrevar.= xyz wrote ---- > > > > > Thank you all for the reviews and the kind feedback! > > > > > > > > > > It seems that the draft was met with success for now. > > > > > So what about including it on Guix' website, maybe with a big link to= it > > > > > on the front page? > > > > I think the problem of "What is Guix?" should be solved before doing th= at (seehttps://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2020-01/msg00002.html). > > Personally, I think GNU Guix and its related operating system should be= presented separately. > > I think that GNU Guix is not a software that needs to be explained to t= he average computer user. GNU Guix, in my opinion, is a software for system= administrators and developers in any field, and it would be good to presen= t it clearly to them in general and provide explanations for particular fie= lds whenever necessary (that's what the section "GNU Guix in your field" in= the home page was designed for). > > Even though one of GNU Guix goals is to empower users, average users ar= e more into installing and removing application, and that's about it. Ideal= ly, not using a command-line interface directly but a graphical user interf= ace (e.g. an app store). > > The operating system, on the other hand, should be presented to average= users, and it should be called simply GNU. With this I mean that the GNU p= roject should use GNU Guix to generate downloadable installers of what they= call the GNU Operating System in their home page and distribute these inst= allers through the GNU.org website. The pages of GNU.org should be updated = accordingly and focus on presenting the GNU operating system to the general= public. This would include adding high-level information of the features G= NU Guix brings with it (reproducibility, bootstrappability, etc.) which wou= ld differentiate GNU from other systems. For advanced uses of the system th= at require deeper understanding of GNU Guix, advanced users should be direc= ted to the GNU Guix subdomain. The rest of the current Free Software Distri= butions (Trisquel, PureOS, Parabola, etc.) would still be listed in GNU.org= as alternative distributions of the GNU Operating System. I know that RMS = opposed to this idea a couple of years ago (https://lists.gnu.org/archive/h= tml/gnu-system-discuss/2014-11/msg00002.html), but I think this should be d= one. > > I think this separation could make it easier to outreach to potential u= sers of both artifacts, the OS and the "software environment manager". Call= ing the OS just GNU would also help differentiate this system from what the= general public call "linux". > > I am sorry, but Guix should most definitively be presented to averagenix = based users (the admins of their own/family workstations). It's like: "Look= , now your grandmother, her cat and your dog can all install packages witho= ut knowing your sudo password!". This feature alone is highly appealing to = some circles ;) . > As for more "advanced" users, from the experience I had when talking abou= t Guix to the unconverted hackers, they struggle to accept why is it so muc= h better than the already hyped technologies that Just Work, such as Chef/P= uppet and other CI/CD for automating installations (), Docker/Singularity o= n their own for building containers etc, especially because it is based on = an 'exotic' language as Scheme (exotic was the exact word that has been use= d in a certain conversation with an experienced professional developer). Di= sclaimer: I started using Guix because it was based on Guile. > > Of course, different target groups should be, well, targeted with differe= nt aspects of Guix -- those that may appeal to them. And, there is more to = Guix than just the pkg manager and the OS. > > Also, to be fair, Guix is the first complex program of the GNU system I a= m aware of that started making waves in modern times, so on the presentatio= n front some things have already been done well. > > - I am not an expert on this, so I am not sure whether Guix can fit in = the same workflow with the mentioned tools, or is in a parallel, or an orth= ogonal universe.