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Fri, 20 Dec 2024 12:31:20 -0500 Received: from mail-4022.proton.ch ([185.70.40.22]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tOgqH-0003qr-VM for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2024 12:31:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lendvai.name; s=protonmail3; t=1734715868; x=1734975068; bh=uI6769TArWwZF538KT9e+Tr4yJwNlnl5USFWygZEvrk=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector:List-Unsubscribe:List-Unsubscribe-Post; b=eQ38yIlY0LHDhVva+EODUsRU9Y1Bj5TCXH9FetHmSWvN+3cqlsuopBRCNCBbdnkFs WWecyk54Hepfs08bM0OkNdX+tJotRJWkUE9OjQhXtPPOBS5AH4ObVxHXuWDnmFtRjc x19Z2g4V4uKxmiWo0T+Ajg5f7Iou6FOWoHj/cHLj9yHCRmJ6OZJeUGvHxURwIG0d1e J6mXdFxSH6PzVkmoaWJ9hC7DvWsPF+wcAFMZxhIPLqQEuhylu28Tpb4/iB9Fj4qJ0M zDvNi0DlZMEPeawG2hUpjXkLhFo8KJLdZPhMDod6MMfSWskeOid73NNdM2o0Z7VycW m9/EZmLQxsPvA== Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2024 17:31:03 +0000 To: Divya Ranjan From: Attila Lendvai Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, pjotr.public12@thebird.nl Subject: Re: On a Guile-based Build-Tool complimenting Guix Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87wmfvo2je.fsf@subvertising.org> References: <87wmfvo2je.fsf@subvertising.org> Feedback-ID: 28384833:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: ba4515ba506f5c8cfb4aeecb43084c2ff7b787e8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 126C03F4B X-Migadu-Scanner: mx13.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-Spam-Score: -2.11 X-TUID: CrJgaX5qjBnw > The other day, after being frustrated of build systems (auto-tools, > meson, maven etc.), I wondered why doesn=E2=80=99t Guix which has such > powerful tools within it (`guix build`, `guix pack` etc.) also not > have a purely Guile-based build tool? After all, our goal is to make > deployment, and building both more declarative and away from the > all-too-familiar =E2=80=9Cdependency hell=E2=80=9D. just a word of warning: proper build systems are surprisingly complicated b= easts. even when they are old and not too well designed, like makefiles, they stil= l have lots of moving parts with strange peculiarities. if you want to be c= ompatible with e.g. makefiles written by upstream, then it will take a lot = of effort. although, i'm not sure whether that is part of your goals. maybe= you just want to provide an alternative build system, and merely inspire u= pstream authors to migrate to it? (as opposed to providing a compatible gui= le-based build script in parallel to upstream's makefiles) nevertheless, here's a random pick from the relatively recent history of ma= king ASDF (common lisp) usable; i.e. not great, just usable: fasl files nee= ded to be split in two: compile time and runtime. the compilers had to be p= atched for to emit compile-time side effects into a different fasl file (de= fining something is also a side effect). then ASDF needed to be extended to= differentiate between compile-time and runtime dependencies. this was a ne= cessary, but not sufficient step to make ASDF reproducible. then lots of pa= ckages had to be patched to e.g. adjust dependency specifications so that e= .g. macro definitions have a proper lifetime. AFAIU guile modules are much better in this regard than the CL model, but t= hey may also have toplevel expressions that have side effects that are exte= rnal to the module that is being compiled/loaded. this is not common, and n= ot good style, but i think it's not forbidden either. if so, then the same = treatment would be needed for such a hypothethical build system and the gui= le ecosystem in general. in short: beware that your proposal may in fact easily be something like: "= let's rewrite e.g. bazel in guile!" and as a final note: below is a nice bird's eye view on build systems. it's= part of an enlightening series of chapters where a martian programmer cras= hes their ship on earth and enters into a dialog with a human programmer wh= ile trying to rebuild his ship: https://ngnghm.github.io/blog/2016/04/26/chapter-9-build-systems-and-modula= rity/ --=20 =E2=80=A2 attila lendvai =E2=80=A2 PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- =E2=80=9CForces beyond your control can take away everything you possess ex= cept one thing, your freedom to choose how you will respond to the situatio= n.=E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Viktor E. Frankl (1905=E2=80=931997), 'Man's Search for Meanin= g' (1946)