From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id YOXHGh+RMWQcpQAASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:06:55 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id CIHuGR+RMWS6uwAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 18:06:55 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F40A13E3E for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 18:06:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1plB52-0007Mv-4F; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 12:06:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1plB4z-0007MS-88 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 12:06:17 -0400 Received: from mail-40136.proton.ch ([185.70.40.136]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1plB4v-0000JD-Qg for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 12:06:16 -0400 Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2023 16:05:59 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lendvai.name; s=protonmail2; t=1680969970; x=1681229170; bh=kShWCAc5fBjqmhnqgEWC74Cq2WBwwfJTb/RlqWgKC20=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=iSi83Ib7xspJ+dgW7ZewoQ/3dZaWPMSB3wZL2TTHtGQADQfART81axSM3JwhPfvxX 9nZBXnwHfOXd6kQCyjwZf9wpTuYarbWRzGsgx5oayue4v+S5n5/lJ72DrMTmIADr0a EslEvKy1ZqCyb+DcvmuOmc+QrIrJURBGDj/UUkf+dLNZupcKP/1SqaOOtJatv5TcE+ NpKwI8UWuR5tBKNinGys++opZ8wNtriQH3VpNRtiObnwQr/qsK/tc4LzIal7DvX+Ea F1wPGjcNaddbsh+v8ZrD7KAJu9nc0ljbtDdcdWOXrt+AqcKC0AYnkhw74GijLHOUS1 9Ba1gNM+5M+qw== To: Csepp From: Attila Lendvai Cc: Simon Tournier , Maxime Devos , Vijaya Anand , pukkamustard , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: [GSoC 23] distributed substitutes, cost of storage Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87355bkwo2.fsf@riseup.net> References: <543c3687-43c5-02d9-cc3a-8e62435ffd95@telenet.be> <86ile9e8dn.fsf@gmail.com> <87355bkwo2.fsf@riseup.net> Feedback-ID: 28384833:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.40.136; envelope-from=attila@lendvai.name; helo=mail-40136.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1680970015; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Mcr18IZgmpX1QWXaf7MRQkTyjnAiVFgRUdpBtvvy+9MpFTwljIWxMltP0FP7ww+hdUEWDO TUyH8crziejkiXd0p9CwhG5JgkJhZRGhy/n5Y6ez6GFQtani0pCVGofxyvo7MLiaK57L7P b1eD6xrNLppHxI6Lj7ocS+MNu0v5AAOIE4ROcmH+BhpslZ+UOenMq6sIft6bOHn/B+ykye hDk01v7ljl791nY10954M601b+JQSq3cmCqb9Fs767MiCaNwwnWVeIkpQlVJ3UIHHQzDdb WR1qHu+4AeJ0FRHk+OKT5NO9DqjX0fej8pZm0P3aXkMG63RXQp3T6/UuwR9WFQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=lendvai.name header.s=protonmail2 header.b=iSi83Ib7; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1680970015; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=kShWCAc5fBjqmhnqgEWC74Cq2WBwwfJTb/RlqWgKC20=; b=bzld2//6dBxoZzSZPJR4aV62DLQY8iK4yFvP1nVGz2yxw5CbCG2uHFAAx5WPVWBwH8WvlI FwNbwEwnbfrZxen0lKC7HOpjXtq1G7dzx9mXpcC+Szf0XE9rcPoTH29hWc6Y8OwvB5Dqwk JN3KDwCa+Tf3R22f2oDo94W97fwZfj5YSjLvnLO4rIUhm4XiACqC6NCqL2FETAYbHyicO7 xl47c/qEe4BZAKsa2GZWIjkd4X2D0EdrxA5Eguu0F5Bj3nizhJ5zCHUxySbj6WvV9HKI34 UfnV8U4sZR/PDGLAv30zDvre++8an1d4UGok0nri/frwnIICl/ygB8sGzO1/AA== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=lendvai.name header.s=protonmail2 header.b=iSi83Ib7; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.15 X-Spam-Score: -6.15 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 0F40A13E3E X-TUID: X4fo7MMS63yi > Haven't read the Swarm thing, going more off of the general vibe of > these cryptocurrency related projects that keep popping up: > Using some kind of (optional) web of trust for clients makes more sense > to me than making people pay with cryptocurrencies. >=20 > I should be able to set up two computers on a LAN in the middle of > nowhere without having to care about some blockchain's global > consistency. yes, but those are different tasks, solved by different tools. Swarm (and IPFS, and their ilk) solve large-scale cooperation in storing co= ntent. and the larger the scale of cooperation, the larger the benefits (re= dundance, fault tolerance, speed due to automatic caching, etc). > NDN can do this right and has been able to for a while. > Personally, I would try that and other established non-ponzi > technologies first for distributed substitutes. > Not being "permissionless" should not be considered a must have. no, it's not a must have. it's just one more storage backend for storing su= bstitutes -- once an abstraction layer like ERIS is installed. without using ERIS, i wouldn't advocate for adding Swarm as the sole p2p ba= ckend integrated into Guix. there are better candidates for such a hypothet= ical singular position, or even as the first backend to get integrated. --=20 =E2=80=A2 attila lendvai =E2=80=A2 PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- =E2=80=9CThe greatest crimes in the world are not committed by people break= ing the rules. It's people who follow orders that drop bombs and massacre v= illages. As a precaution to ever committing major acts of evil it is our so= lemn duty never to do what we're told, this is the only way we can be sure.= =E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Banksy, a graffiti artist from Bristol, 'Wall and Piece'