From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Catonano Subject: Re: Being excellent to one another Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 12:02:28 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87r3284x8s.fsf@lassieur.org> <87h92t1qts.fsf@gnu.org> <20170316204527.lnkgc2vot4uqk633@abyayala> <20170317053620.GA16076@jocasta.intra> <20170317162131.GA4354@jasmine> <20170317175802.GB30584@jocasta.intra> <20170318110952.xhhobwl5ep4mlbpj@abyayala> <878to27laf.fsf_-_@gnu.org> <87inn499gk.fsf@dustycloud.org> <20170319195707.175eb056@khaalida> <20170320063619.GA20517@jocasta.intra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114431f29f66ab054b2776ab Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cpv59-0007dr-SW for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 07:02:40 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cpv54-00073N-TH for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 07:02:35 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-x232.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::232]:36476) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cpv54-00072c-JF for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 07:02:30 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-x232.google.com with SMTP id n11so60186804wma.1 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 04:02:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170320063619.GA20517@jocasta.intra> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: John Darrington Cc: guix-devel --001a114431f29f66ab054b2776ab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2017-03-20 7:36 GMT+01:00 John Darrington : > On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 07:57:07PM -0700, dian_cecht@zoho.com wrote: > On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:40:27 -0500 > Christopher Allan Webber wrote: > > The important thing is to not assume someone's preferred pronouns > > without knowing them. Singular they isn't your only option; I also > > happen to like Spivak pronouns: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun > > The problem here is that I'd be suprised if many people have even > heard > about these. I used to play MUDs quite a bit and have /never/ heard > any > of those. They are certainly not a part of common usage, and I'd say > should be avoided for something more standard (them et al). It's a > nice > idea, but overall seems like it would cause confusion, and probably > more than a few "Hey, there is a typo in the manual"-type bugs than > anything. > > At least, if I picked up a random bit of documentation and saw things > like "e" used constantly, I'd assume it was a typo and not some > archaic > gender-neutral pronoun. > > I tend to agree. These invented aspects of language are kindof fun for > informal use but out of place in a user manual. In a manual we should > stick to proper English - put yourself in the position of a person who > is learning English as a second language. That person has spent months > attending language school and is starting to become confident then picks > up a manual and sees the words "pis" and "per". It's enough to throw you > off your stride. (I remember something similar happening to me when > learning > a foriegn language: I started reading a novel, and there was lots of > dialogue > all in regional dialect. I felt like giving up.) > > Fortunately in a user manual one very rarely needs a personal *definite* > pronoun. > In GNU manuals, the long standing practise is to refer to the person using > the > program, as "you". Occasionally a personal *indefinite* pronoun is called > for and > luckily in English we have a perfect gender neutral one, viz: "one". > > Some authors religiously avoid the whole issue altogether by writing every > sentence in the passive voice - but that makes the manual extremely hard to > understand even for very patient readers. > > Ok, it' s evident that John has his own weaknesses about linguistics. I feel compelled to write something anyway, so that a publicly available record of this remains. When writing texts, such as this email, and absolutely *have* to use a > personal > definite pronoun, I default to "she" because whereas vigilantes will > pounce upon > you whenever they see "he" (ironically those people are invariably male), > I've > never had anyone complain when "she" occurs where the gender of the subject > might well be masculine. > In life, I've had my share of hardship because of assumed social norms related to sexual orientation. And a scene has been described to you of people breaking in tears and leaving places because of having been misgendered. So your observation about who raises the issue, associated to the word "vigilantes" means that you are negating my reasons. You are implicitly claiming that this is not about suffered discrimination, but rather it' s about imposing discrimination, possibly on an idelogical basis, using the issue of sexual orientation/gendering as a tool. Like when you wrote that being addressed with a pronoun of the wrong number is not that terrible. You were negating the issue raised by ng0. You are being gratuitously offensive, aggressing people and you are being dismissive about people weaknesses that are being represented to you repeatedly. On the ground of formal linguistic correctness, as if it was a matter or death or life. And it seems that your argument about your native language is not that convincing, anyway. What does this make of you ? --001a114431f29f66ab054b2776ab Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2017-03-20 7:36 GMT+01:00 John Darrington <john@darrington.= wattle.id.au>:
On Sun, Mar 19, 2017 at 07:57:07PM -0700, dian_cecht@zoho.com wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:40:27 -0500
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The important thing is to not assume someone's= preferred pronouns
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> without knowing them.=C2=A0 Singular they isn'= t your only option; I also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> happen to like Spivak pronouns:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://en.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The problem here is that I'd be suprised if many pe= ople have even heard
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about these. I used to play MUDs quite a bit and have /= never/ heard any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of those. They are certainly not a part of common usage= , and I'd say
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be avoided for something more standard (them et = al). It's a nice
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0idea, but overall seems like it would cause confusion, = and probably
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0more than a few "Hey, there is a typo in the manua= l"-type bugs than
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0anything.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At least, if I picked up a random bit of documentation = and saw things
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like "e" used constantly, I'd assume it w= as a typo and not some archaic
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gender-neutral pronoun.

I tend to agree.=C2=A0 These invented aspects of language are k= indof fun for
informal use but out of place in a user manual.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In a manual we= should
stick to proper English - put yourself in the position of a person who
is learning English as a second language.=C2=A0 That person has spent month= s
attending language school and is starting to become confident then picks up a manual and sees the words "pis" and "per".=C2=A0 I= t's enough to throw you
off your stride. (I remember something similar happening to me when learnin= g
a foriegn language: I started reading a novel, and there was lots of dialog= ue
all in regional dialect. I felt like giving up.)

Fortunately in a user manual one very rarely needs a personal *definite* pr= onoun.
In GNU manuals, the long standing practise is to refer to the person using = the
program, as "you".=C2=A0 Occasionally a personal *indefinite* pro= noun is called for and
luckily in English we have a perfect gender neutral one, viz: "one&quo= t;.

Some authors religiously avoid the whole issue altogether by writing every<= br> sentence in the passive voice - but that makes the manual extremely hard to=
understand even for very patient readers.


Ok, it' s evident that John has hi= s own weaknesses about linguistics.
I feel compelled to write= something anyway, so that a publicly available record of this remains.

When writing texts, such as this email, and absolutely=C2=A0 *have* to use = a personal
definite pronoun, I default to "she" because whereas vigilantes w= ill pounce upon
you whenever they see "he" (ironically those people are invariabl= y male), I've
never had anyone complain when "she" occurs where the gender of t= he subject
might well be masculine.

In life, I've h= ad my share of hardship because of assumed social norms related to sexual o= rientation.

And a scene has been de= scribed to you of people breaking in tears and leaving places because of ha= ving been misgendered.

So your obse= rvation about who raises the issue, associated to the word "vigilantes= " means that you are negating my reasons.

You are implicitly claiming that this is not about suffered dis= crimination, but rather it' s about imposing discrimination, possibly o= n an idelogical basis, using the issue of sexual orientation/gendering as a= tool.

Like when you wrote that bei= ng addressed with a pronoun of the wrong number is not that terrible.
You were negating the issue raised by ng= 0.

You are being gratuitously offen= sive, aggressing people and you are being dismissive about people weaknesse= s that are being represented to you repeatedly.

On the ground of formal linguistic correctness, as if it was a= matter or death or life.
And it seems that your argument about your na= tive language is not that convincing, anyway.

What does this make of you ?
--001a114431f29f66ab054b2776ab--