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From: Catonano <catonano@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: interesting thread
Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 21:26:28 +0200
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To: Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org>
Cc: guix-devel <guix-devel@gnu.org>

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2017-05-24 18:17 GMT+02:00 Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org>:

> Catonano writes:
>
> > no comments ?
>
> I saw this message, had a quick look and a frown...
>
> > I was so enthsiast of aving discovered this
>
> Can you summarize what's to get enthousiastic about?
>
> >     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lod/2017May/0005.html
> >
> >     they published the metadata about the WHOLE collection of packaged
> in npm !!
>
> Having looked into npm and worked on the guix npm importer, I found that
> even the some of the most trivial packages cannot be built from source.
> Cyclic dependencies in the build systems.
>
> So after having tried to get npm into GuixSD, I'm at the point of giving
> up on npm and am planning to migrate away from it.
>
> I can hardly imagine...but does this report in any way hint that some
> packages can be built from source and how to do that?
>

I only skimmed through it but I think it doesn' t

I think the authors are not well versed in software engineering, they might
be not completely aware of the issues involved in software reproducibility.

This is one of the reasons why this post is interesting. These people might
be interested in learning about Guix and its reasons

And frankly, I believe that the "data oriented" approach could help Guix;
so yes, I think that Guix has something to learn from their effort too

I know the issues that plague the npmjs world.

In my grand plan, we would have a complete graph of the npmjs packages and
the dependencies among them.

This could help in doing a sane bootstrap of nodejs in Guix. Sort of what
Ricardo is doing with Java

He' s doing that manually, discovering binary blobs in "sources" as he
proceeds

Because the nodejs graph is so large and dense, a more systematic approach
would be, in my opinion, necessary, in order to achieve the same result.

I have been thinking about giving up on the web entirely because of
javascript

I never liked the idea of apps in the browser, anyway. I still miss my
favourite native email client, Eudora

But the community working with nodejs, around the world, is enormous. Huge

Think about the Mediawiki foundation, or Wordpress.

Think about Ruby on Rails.

Recently I even found an IDE for Postgresql, it looked like a native
application, instead it has a frame with javascript infested content in it

Renouncing to nodejs would be a huge blow to Guix. As huge as the nodejs
community is

Then, add Gnunet to the equation: if there was a set of native Gnome apps
integrated with Gnunet, the Free Software movement could offer something
valuable to many people working with php/nodejs off the shelve solutions
today.

It would be an important opportunity for the Free Software at large, not
Guix only.

I believe this is important

Now: as you might remember, I made an effort to collect the jquery
dependencies graph and store it in a graph db

The Graph db I used was not mature enough, so that when a version
advancement came, I discovered that there was no upgrade path for my data

I thought to re-do that from scratch using Postgresql

But I slacked off and I had some difficulties in wrapping my mind around
the possibility to make such a scraper concurrent

But that's another story

Anyway, this is the reason why I am enthusiastic about this release: they
published a COMPLETE nodejs dependencies graph as linked data

So my scraping effort is not needed anymore !

Now it' s just a matter of querying those data to identify culprit
packages, unbuildable or otherwise problematic

I think it' s an advancement !

As for my personal projects, I could prefer usig Gnome over the web based
stuff too. But what I was thinking is not only my personal toys.

So, these is my reasoning.

I hope I made myself clearer now

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2017-05-24 18:17 GMT+02:00 Jan Nieuwenhuizen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:janneke@gnu.org" target=3D"_blank">janneke@gnu.org</a>&gt;</s=
pan>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Catonano writes:<br>
<br>
&gt; no comments ?<br>
<br>
I saw this message, had a quick look and a frown...<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; I was so enthsiast of aving discovered this<br>
<br>
</span>Can you summarize what&#39;s to get enthousiastic about?<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/pub=
lic-lod/2017May/0005.html" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lis=
ts.w3.org/Archives/<wbr>Public/public-lod/2017May/<wbr>0005.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they published the metadata about the WHOLE collect=
ion of packaged in npm !!<br>
<br>
</span>Having looked into npm and worked on the guix npm importer, I found =
that<br>
even the some of the most trivial packages cannot be built from source.<br>
Cyclic dependencies in the build systems.<br>
<br>
So after having tried to get npm into GuixSD, I&#39;m at the point of givin=
g<br>
up on npm and am planning to migrate away from it.<br>
<br>
I can hardly imagine...but does this report in any way hint that some<br>
packages can be built from source and how to do that?<br></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>I only skimmed through it but I think it doesn&#39; t<br><br=
></div><div>I think the authors are not well versed in software engineering=
, they might be not completely aware of the issues involved in software rep=
roducibility.<br><br></div><div>This is one of the reasons why this post is=
 interesting. These people might be interested in learning about Guix and i=
ts reasons<br><br></div><div>And frankly, I believe that the &quot;data ori=
ented&quot; approach could help Guix; so yes, I think that Guix has somethi=
ng to learn from their effort too<br><br></div>I know the issues that plagu=
e the npmjs world.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">In my grand plan=
, we would have a complete graph of the npmjs packages and the dependencies=
 among them.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">This could help in doi=
ng a sane bootstrap of nodejs in Guix. Sort of what Ricardo is doing with J=
ava<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">He&#39; s doing that manually, =
discovering binary blobs in &quot;sources&quot; as he proceeds<br><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Because the nodejs graph is so large and dense,=
 a more systematic approach would be, in my opinion, necessary, in order to=
 achieve the same result.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I have be=
en thinking about giving up on the web entirely because of javascript<br><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I never liked the idea of apps in the br=
owser, anyway. I still miss my favourite native email client, Eudora<br><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">But the community working with nodejs, ar=
ound the world, is enormous. Huge<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">T=
hink about the Mediawiki foundation, or Wordpress.<br><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">Think about Ruby on Rails.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">Recently I even found an IDE for Postgresql, it looked like a nati=
ve application, instead it has a frame with javascript infested content in =
it<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Renouncing to nodejs would be a =
huge blow to Guix. As huge as the nodejs community is<br><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">Then, add Gnunet to the equation: if there was a set of =
native Gnome apps integrated with Gnunet, the Free Software movement could =
offer something valuable to many people working with php/nodejs off the she=
lve solutions today.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">It would be an=
 important opportunity for the Free Software at large, not Guix only.<br><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I believe this is important<br><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Now: as you might remember, I made an effort to=
 collect the jquery dependencies graph and store it in a graph db<br><br></=
div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">The Graph db I used was not mature enough, s=
o that when a version advancement came, I discovered that there was no upgr=
ade path for my data<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I thought to r=
e-do that from scratch using Postgresql<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">But I slacked off and I had some difficulties in wrapping my mind arou=
nd the possibility to make such a scraper concurrent<br><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">But that&#39;s another story<br><br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">Anyway, this is the reason why I am enthusiastic about this rel=
ease: they published a COMPLETE nodejs dependencies graph as linked data<br=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">So my scraping effort is not needed a=
nymore !<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Now it&#39; s just a matte=
r of querying those data to identify culprit packages, unbuildable or other=
wise problematic<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I think it&#39; s =
an advancement !<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">As for my personal=
 projects, I could prefer usig Gnome over the web based stuff too. But what=
 I was thinking is not only my personal toys.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">So, these is my reasoning.<br><=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">I hope I made myself clearer now<br></d=
iv></div></div>

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