From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wilson Bustos Subject: Gender neutral documentation Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:10:21 -0400 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f79dcf058eed4639" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38027) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsaKX-00007o-KH for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:10:50 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsaKR-0001yd-Vp for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:10:45 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]:34293) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsaKM-0001vC-UE for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 18:10:40 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id b13so30551303pfo.1 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 15:10:33 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guix-devel@gnu.org --000000000000f79dcf058eed4639 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello everyone! I would like to help to make guix packages, I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this. But I have some questions. 1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral' documentation. and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? 2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages like this one: https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00edsticas Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sentence. LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con privilegios de usuaria normal*.` which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is only used to refer to a woman. but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman. Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to this I change to the english manual. I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and help, I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a flame war or something like that. I just want to know If the example that I give is product of a 'gender neutral' documentation rule or just was a mistake. Thank you so much for your help with this. Regards! --000000000000f79dcf058eed4639 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone!
I would like to help to= make guix packages,
I'm also reading documentation and w= atching videos about this.

But I have some questions.
1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender ne= utral' documentation.
and how that works in different la= nguages such as Spanish?

2- Reading the the Spanish versi= on of the GNU manual in several pages like this one:
= https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00ed= sticas

Has female sentence instead a '= normal' - 'neutral' sentence.
LIKE: `Opera en los= perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada con privilegios de usuaria normal.`

which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is o= nly used to refer to a woman.
but 'usuario' can be us= ed to refer to a man or woman.
Using this all the time it bec= omes confusing to read for me, due to this I change to the english manual.<= br>

I completely respect your job I want to be par= t of the community and help, I know this is a really delicate topic and I d= on't want to make a flame war or something like that.

I just want to know If the example that I give is product of a 'gender= neutral' documentation rule or just was a mistake.

T= hank you so much for your help with this.
Regards!
=
--000000000000f79dcf058eed4639-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Miguel Subject: Re: Gender neutral documentation Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:34:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41668) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbdx-0004cW-BA for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:34:58 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbdt-0004nV-Sc for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:34:57 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::335]:33217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbdt-0004hG-1W for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:34:53 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id h19so36710wme.0 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 16:34:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guix-devel@gnu.org, Wilson Bustos El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos escr= ibi=C3=B3: >Hello everyone! >I would like to help to make guix packages, >I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this=2E > >But I have some questions=2E >1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral' >documentation=2E >and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? > The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is in= tended as explained here: https://guix=2Egnu=2Eorg/manual/es/html_node/Envi= o-de-parches=2Ehtml#DOCF40 >2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages >like >this one: >https://guix=2Egnu=2Eorg/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas=2Ehtml#Carac= ter_00edsticas > >Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sentence=2E >LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con >privilegios >de usuaria normal*=2E` > >which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is only used >to >refer to a woman=2E >but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman=2E As written in the footnote, It's perfectly reasonable to say in Spanish "l= a persona" and "las personas" (person/people in English), whose grammatical= gender is feminine, to refer anyone without making any reference to their = preferred gender, so it should be any problem to use that grammatical gende= r instead of the usual "neutral" one=2E From Latin's neutral case we have w= ords like "el/la estudiante", "el/la marchante [de arte]", but the selectio= n of the masculine as the default/neutral form is arguably biased towards o= ne end=2E=20 >Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to >this I >change to the english manual=2E I understand that it can be tiresome, specially if you've been socialized = as a male as I've been=2E On the other hand, more than a half of the Spanis= h speakers don't have to make any effort in order to understand it=2E I sup= pose that the same effort probably have been the done (usually beforehand) = by people socialized as females when they read a document claiming (implici= tly, as any language construct) that "usuario" applies to them too, but I o= nly have anecdotical evidence=2E=2E=2E and the fact that women are really u= nderrepresented (at least) in the development and free software community, = so I try to take a feminist stance as my grain of sand to move this actual = mountain=2E >I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and >help, >I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a flame >war >or something like that=2E My approach is far from perfect: there are people who don't identify neith= er as male nor female, so the dissonance is still there, but I'm open to an= y new idea but using male gender as neutral one for the reasons I exposed t= here and here=2E Personally, I think it needs to be openly talked, it shouldn't be a flame = war each time somebody mentions it=2E The conflict is already there, not sp= eaking "about the elephant" doesn't make it disappear and only delays the p= ossible solutions=2E Best regards, Miguel Hello, Wilson! Thank you for your interest in this awesome community=2E From my side, I'v= e been taking more than expected to finish the translation and send some ot= her patches, sorry for that=2E I hope to do it soon, but I only can answer = with my phone at this moment=2E I'll try to answer your questions inline, let's see=2E=2E=2E From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wilson Bustos Subject: Re: Gender neutral documentation Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:26 -0400 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43561) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbw7-0005f6-9Y for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:45 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbw3-0002aG-HY for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:41 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]:33538) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbw3-0002Yn-2t for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:39 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id c14so29484759plo.0 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 16:53:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Miguel Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org --000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos escribi=C3=B3: >>Hello everyone! >>I would like to help to make guix packages, >I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this. >> >>But I have some questions. >>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral' >>documentation. >>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? >> > The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is intended as explained here: https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40 Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question! My other question is: Are you the only person who translate in Spanish? - If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first? I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind the neo Spanish rules that you apply, - This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for the main documentation? El mar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 19:34, Miguel () escribi=C3=B3: > El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos > escribi=C3=B3: > >Hello everyone! > >I would like to help to make guix packages, > >I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this. > > > >But I have some questions. > >1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral' > >documentation. > >and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? > > > > The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is > intended as explained here: > https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40 > > >2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages > >like > >this one: > > > https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00= edsticas > > > >Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sentence. > >LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con > >privilegios > >de usuaria normal*.` > > > >which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is only used > >to > >refer to a woman. > >but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman. > > As written in the footnote, It's perfectly reasonable to say in Spanish > "la persona" and "las personas" (person/people in English), whose > grammatical gender is feminine, to refer anyone without making any > reference to their preferred gender, so it should be any problem to use > that grammatical gender instead of the usual "neutral" one. From Latin's > neutral case we have words like "el/la estudiante", "el/la marchante [de > arte]", but the selection of the masculine as the default/neutral form is > arguably biased towards one end. > > >Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to > >this I > >change to the english manual. > > I understand that it can be tiresome, specially if you've been socialized > as a male as I've been. On the other hand, more than a half of the Spanis= h > speakers don't have to make any effort in order to understand it. I suppo= se > that the same effort probably have been the done (usually beforehand) by > people socialized as females when they read a document claiming > (implicitly, as any language construct) that "usuario" applies to them to= o, > but I only have anecdotical evidence... and the fact that women are reall= y > underrepresented (at least) in the development and free software communit= y, > so I try to take a feminist stance as my grain of sand to move this actua= l > mountain. > > >I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and > >help, > >I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a flame > >war > >or something like that. > > My approach is far from perfect: there are people who don't identify > neither as male nor female, so the dissonance is still there, but I'm ope= n > to any new idea but using male gender as neutral one for the reasons I > exposed there and here. > > Personally, I think it needs to be openly talked, it shouldn't be a flame > war each time somebody mentions it. The conflict is already there, not > speaking "about the elephant" doesn't make it disappear and only delays t= he > possible solutions. > > Best regards, > Miguel > Hello, Wilson! > > Thank you for your interest in this awesome community. From my side, I've > been taking more than expected to finish the translation and send some > other patches, sorry for that. I hope to do it soon, but I only can answe= r > with my phone at this moment. > > I'll try to answer your questions inline, let's see... > --000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
El July 30, 2019 1= 0:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:
>>Hello everyone!
>>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
<= span class=3D"gmail-im">>>
>>But I have some questions.
>>1- Do you have some document which = explain what means 'gender neutral'
>>documentation.
>>and how that works in different lan= guages such as Spanish?
>>

> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation i= s intended as explained here: h= ttps://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40
Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question!=

My other question is:
Are you the only person w= ho translate in Spanish?

- If I help you with some parts = have I to sent it to you first?
I ask this because I'm no= t sure if I can apply all the logic behind the neo Spanish rules that you a= pply,

- This rules are also to translate the = package description? or only for the main documentation?


El m= ar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 19:34, Miguel (<rosen644835@gmail.com>) escribi=C3=B3:
El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wi= lson Bustos <wrb= utros@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:
>Hello everyone!
>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
>
>But I have some questions.
>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutr= al'
>documentation.
>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
>

The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is int= ended as explained here: https:= //guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40

>2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages >like
>this one:
>https://guix.gn= u.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00edsticas
>
>Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sent= ence.
>LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con
>privilegios
>de usuaria normal*.`
>
>which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is onl= y used
>to
>refer to a woman.
>but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman.

As written in the footnote, It's perfectly reasonable to say in Spanish= "la persona" and "las personas" (person/people in Engl= ish), whose grammatical gender is feminine, to refer anyone without making = any reference to their preferred gender, so it should be any problem to use= that grammatical gender instead of the usual "neutral" one. From= Latin's neutral case we have words like "el/la estudiante", = "el/la marchante [de arte]", but the selection of the masculine a= s the default/neutral form is arguably biased towards one end.

>Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to
>this I
>change to the english manual.

I understand that it can be tiresome, specially if you've been socializ= ed as a male as I've been. On the other hand, more than a half of the S= panish speakers don't have to make any effort in order to understand it= . I suppose that the same effort probably have been the done (usually befor= ehand) by people socialized as females when they read a document claiming (= implicitly, as any language construct) that "usuario" applies to = them too, but I only have anecdotical evidence... and the fact that women a= re really underrepresented (at least) in the development and free software = community, so I try to take a feminist stance as my grain of sand to move t= his actual mountain.

>I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and >help,
>I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a f= lame
>war
>or something like that.

My approach is far from perfect: there are people who don't identify ne= ither as male nor female, so the dissonance is still there, but I'm ope= n to any new idea but using male gender as neutral one for the reasons I ex= posed there and here.

Personally, I think it needs to be openly talked, it shouldn't be a fla= me war each time somebody mentions it. The conflict is already there, not s= peaking "about the elephant" doesn't make it disappear and on= ly delays the possible solutions.

Best regards,
Miguel
Hello, Wilson!

Thank you for your interest in this awesome community. From my side, I'= ve been taking more than expected to finish the translation and send some o= ther patches, sorry for that. I hope to do it soon, but I only can answer w= ith my phone at this moment.

I'll try to answer your questions inline, let's see...
--000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Miguel Subject: Re: Gender neutral documentation Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 00:42:21 +0000 Message-ID: <83D87B2F-6BED-44D2-977C-D8DD497F1771@gmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35097) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hschK-0005IP-NX for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 20:42:31 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hschJ-0005Qm-8D for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 20:42:30 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x432.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::432]:38317) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hschJ-0005Lv-1Y for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 20:42:29 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x432.google.com with SMTP id g17so67683468wrr.5 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 17:42:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Wilson Bustos Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Hi! El July 30, 2019 11:53:26 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos esc= ribi=C3=B3: >El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos >escribi=C3=B3: >>>Hello everyone! >>>I would like to help to make guix packages, >>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this=2E >>> >>>But I have some questions=2E >>>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender >neutral' >>>documentation=2E >>>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? >>> > >> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation >is >intended as explained here: >https://guix=2Egnu=2Eorg/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches=2Ehtml#DOCF= 40 > >Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question! You're welcome=2E >My other question is: >Are you the only person who translate in Spanish? Right now, yes=2E If you want to help, that'd make it two=2E :-) >- If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first? Well, actually https://translationproject=2Eorg is the real platform for t= he translation process, but we could define any workflow as needed, I think= =2E We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp=2Eorg=2Ees),= if needed=2E >I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind the >neo >Spanish rules that you apply, They aren't rules, they're a synthesis of the intent behind my translation= s=2E I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where the feminine= (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender=2E As I bend a = little the conventional rules in the default case, I can understand the "ne= o" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close to the facts and far from that = kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on topic=2E >- This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for >the >main documentation? As I said, they aren't rules, only the reason why I did that=2E I think th= at it's up to the community to make a decision, not me=2E Currently, the co= mmunity decision is to use gender neutral language, but it'd be a nonsense = make a decision about a language you don't speak, so this interpretation is= at the end up to each language speakers community=2E Any thought about gender neutrality in Spanish, everybody? Best regards, Miguel From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wilson Bustos Subject: Re: Gender neutral documentation Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 22:11:06 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83D87B2F-6BED-44D2-977C-D8DD497F1771@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000003d281058ef0a41f" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52367) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hse5K-00056S-9S for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 22:11:23 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hse5I-0006BK-C0 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 22:11:22 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]:36527) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hse5I-00069I-3D for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 22:11:20 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id k8so29747018plt.3 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:11:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83D87B2F-6BED-44D2-977C-D8DD497F1771@gmail.com> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Miguel Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org --00000000000003d281058ef0a41f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Right now, yes. If you want to help, that'd make it two. :-) Ahh ok! I will >> Well, actually https://translationproject.org is the real platform for the translation process, but we could define any workflow as needed, I think. We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp.org.es), if needed. Nice! I'm will check that >> They aren't rules, they're a synthesis of the intent behind my translations. I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where the feminine (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender. As I bend a little the conventional rules in the default case, I can understand the "neo" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close to the facts and far from that kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on topic. Actually I didn't try to make a joke, I tried to describe the 'new spanish rules' as that, because is not the 'conventional way' to text Spanish. Just to be clear, I really appreciate your work and all that you have translated so far even if I consider the 'new way' to text Spanish is not correct, but its ok, Its more important have an Spanish version after all. Then, I understand I should translate in the female (grammatical) spanish (as a rule) to keep the all the documentation with the same logic. If in the future someone consider is better modify it to 'traditional spanish' they can update it I guess. Regards! El mar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 20:42, Miguel () escribi=C3=B3: > Hi! > > El July 30, 2019 11:53:26 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos > escribi=C3=B3: > >El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos > >escribi=C3=B3: > >>>Hello everyone! > >>>I would like to help to make guix packages, > >>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this. > >>> > >>>But I have some questions. > >>>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender > >neutral' > >>>documentation. > >>>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? > >>> > > > >> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation > >is > >intended as explained here: > >https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40 > > > >Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question! > > You're welcome. > > >My other question is: > >Are you the only person who translate in Spanish? > > Right now, yes. If you want to help, that'd make it two. :-) > > >- If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first? > > Well, actually https://translationproject.org is the real platform for > the translation process, but we could define any workflow as needed, I > think. We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp.org.es)= , > if needed. > > >I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind the > >neo > >Spanish rules that you apply, > > They aren't rules, they're a synthesis of the intent behind my > translations. I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where t= he > feminine (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender. As I > bend a little the conventional rules in the default case, I can understan= d > the "neo" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close to the facts and far > from that kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on topic. > > >- This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for > >the > >main documentation? > > As I said, they aren't rules, only the reason why I did that. I think tha= t > it's up to the community to make a decision, not me. Currently, the > community decision is to use gender neutral language, but it'd be a > nonsense make a decision about a language you don't speak, so this > interpretation is at the end up to each language speakers community. > > Any thought about gender neutrality in Spanish, everybody? > > Best regards, > Miguel > --00000000000003d281058ef0a41f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> Right now, yes. If you w= ant to help, that'd make it two. :-)
Ahh ok! I will

>> Well, actually https://translationproje= ct.org is the real platform for the translation process, but we could define=20 any workflow as needed, I think. We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp.org.e= s), if needed.

Nice! I'= ;m will check that

>> They aren't rules, they're a syn= thesis of the intent behind my=20 translations. I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where= =20 the feminine (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender. As I bend a little the conventional rules in the default case, I can=20 understand the "neo" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close= to the=20 facts and far from that kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on=20 topic.

A= ctually I didn't try to make a joke, I tried to describe the 'new s= panish rules' as that, because is not the 'conventional way' to= text Spanish.
Just to be clear, I really appreciate your work and all that = you have translated so far even if I consider the 'new way' to text Spanish is= not correct, but its ok, Its more important have an Spanish version after = all.
Then, I understand I should translate in the female (grammatical) s= panish (as a rule) to keep the all the documentation with the same logic.
If in the future someone consider is better modify it to 'traditi= onal spanish' they can update it I guess.

Regards!




<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">El mar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 20:42, Mig= uel (<rosen644835@gmail.com= >) escribi=C3=B3:
Hi!

El July 30, 2019 11:53:26 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:<= br> >El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com>
>escribi=C3=B3:
>>>Hello everyone!
>>>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.<= br> >>>
>>>But I have some questions.
>>>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gend= er
>neutral'
>>>documentation.
>>>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
>>>
>
>> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translati= on
>is
>intended as explained here:
>https://guix.gnu.org/manual= /es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40
>
>Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question!

You're welcome.

>My other question is:
>Are you the only person who translate in Spanish?

Right now, yes. If you want to help, that'd make it two. :-)

>- If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first?

Well, actually https://translationproject.org is the real platform= for the translation process, but we could define any workflow as needed, I= think. We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp.org.es), if needed.

>I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind= the
>neo
>Spanish rules that you apply,

They aren't rules, they're a synthesis of the intent behind my tran= slations. I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where the= feminine (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender. As I = bend a little the conventional rules in the default case, I can understand = the "neo" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close to the fac= ts and far from that kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on topic.
>- This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for=
>the
>main documentation?

As I said, they aren't rules, only the reason why I did that. I think t= hat it's up to the community to make a decision, not me. Currently, the= community decision is to use gender neutral language, but it'd be a no= nsense make a decision about a language you don't speak, so this interp= retation is at the end up to each language speakers community.

Any thought about gender neutrality in Spanish, everybody?

Best regards,
Miguel
--00000000000003d281058ef0a41f-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: Gender neutral documentation Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 23:58:12 +0200 Message-ID: <875zmoj217.fsf@gnu.org> References: <83D87B2F-6BED-44D2-977C-D8DD497F1771@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43064) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i0v60-0005tD-7H for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:58:16 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83D87B2F-6BED-44D2-977C-D8DD497F1771@gmail.com> (Miguel's message of "Wed, 31 Jul 2019 00:42:21 +0000") List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Miguel Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Hello, Miguel skribis: > As I said, they aren't rules, only the reason why I did that. I think tha= t it's up to the community to make a decision, not me. Currently, the commu= nity decision is to use gender neutral language, but it'd be a nonsense mak= e a decision about a language you don't speak, so this interpretation is at= the end up to each language speakers community. > > Any thought about gender neutrality in Spanish, everybody? Latin languages are pretty bad at that. In Spanish, people sometimes replace the =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Co=E2=80=9D suffixes (which den= ote feminine and masculine) with =E2=80=9C@=E2=80=9D or with =E2=80=9Ce=E2=80=9D. That would be another option, but it=E2=80=99s up to you translators to fin= d the most appropriate way to address the issue, IMO (and this could change over time). Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Laura Lazzati Subject: Re: Gender neutral documentation Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 17:15:54 -0300 Message-ID: References: <83D87B2F-6BED-44D2-977C-D8DD497F1771@gmail.com> <875zmoj217.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3985e0591abc304" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48479) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1i5FEB-0000k5-9i for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 16:16:36 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1i5FEA-0003L7-DM for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 16:16:35 -0400 In-Reply-To: <875zmoj217.fsf@gnu.org> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= Cc: Guix-devel --000000000000a3985e0591abc304 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I would like to help in translating to Spanish if you need to :) Latin languages are pretty bad at that. In Spanish, people sometimes > replace the =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Co=E2=80=9D suffixes (which d= enote feminine and masculine) > with =E2=80=9C@=E2=80=9D or with =E2=80=9Ce=E2=80=9D. > Here we use "e" or "x" for gender neutrality (ie: les usuaries, or lxs usuarixs for "the users", the reason of using an "e" is that you can pronounce it, while @ or x not). However, nothing is approved by Real Academia Espa=C3=B1ola. Regards :) Laura --000000000000a3985e0591abc304 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
I would like to help in translating= to Spanish if you need to :)

Latin languages are pretty bad at that.=C2=A0 In Spanish, people sometimes<= br> replace the =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Co=E2=80=9D suffixes (which den= ote feminine and masculine)
with =E2=80=9C@=E2=80=9D or with =E2=80=9Ce=E2=80=9D.
= Here we use "e" or "x" for gender neutrality (ie: les u= suaries, or lxs usuarixs for "the users", the reason of using an = "e" is that you can pronounce it, while @ or x not). However, not= hing is approved by Real Academia Espa=C3=B1ola.

Regards :)
Laura
--000000000000a3985e0591abc304--