From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Dan Partelly Subject: Re: Ensuring we don't break user systems Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:59:58 +0300 Message-ID: References: <28F9E4E7-AA66-43E7-8A68-AC3E46B60959@lepiller.eu> <1C89A082-845D-49B4-A70F-D4FFCD411124@rdsor.ro> <871sbmkl3p.fsf@cbaines.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40306) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fjpzA-0007V1-IV for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:00:05 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fjpz7-0008UL-HP for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:00:04 -0400 Received: from imap.rdsor.ro ([193.231.238.8]:39432 helo=mail.rdsor.ro) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fjpz7-0008U9-Ax for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:00:01 -0400 In-Reply-To: <871sbmkl3p.fsf@cbaines.net> List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Christopher Baines Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org No I did not shown or proofed this affirmation. I believe it is = sensible. It is a undeniable reality of software development that bugs = are introduced during development. Having the update to the package = manager (which in GuixSD is very central to the distro itself)=20 result in a broken system "even if you can roll back=E2=80=9D is a very = bad thing. It is my opinion that the current model is both technically = bad (exposing users to broken software , security bugs and so on) and = socially bad ( having the package manager crap on itself due to bugs = introduced in the development cycle may prompt a lot of people to look = in to an alternative and creates bad publicity. It also results in end = users wasting time, and time is the most precious comodity we have. I do = not want the OS I use to waste my time. I want to install the software I = need and work with and go on with my life and work ). Ironically, the = problem is easily solved . DO not expose people to your devel branch = where they will get first contact wiith guix bugs and guile bugs. The = situation with GuixSD is somehow complicated by the fact that the = package metadata is compiled as code, but yeah, a stable branch which is = proven to be compilable and preferably regression tested is the first = step IMO towards a better future with GuixSD. Treat is as a product = which offers a rock solid platform for the users. And yes, in between 0.14 / 0.15 GuixSD was broken by guix pull a lot. = That is a fact, unfortunately.=20 > Dan Partelly writes: >=20 >> I pointed this out 4-5 weeks ago when trying GuixSD, on this very = list. Thanks for reaffirming the idea In all honesty the current model = is very badly broken, and you should not wait for 1.0. I had no other = Linux distro break up faster than GuixSD. A stable branch is not enough = by itself, (but is the mort important part) you need to ensure that all = substitutes are built correctly, and atomically update all substitutes = following a successful build of all packages. >>=20 >> You should not inflict current model on your users , not even for = an 0.1 >=20 > While this might apply to some software. I don't believe, and I don't > think you've shown that this reasoning is appropriate or useful to = apply > to Guix. >=20 > Saying that something doesn't work for you is fine, and can be = helpful, > but such a unevidenced extreme view is unhelpful.