Document our WIP

Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

Hello,

I'd like to reiterate my proposal to document our
ongoing projects, maybe with a "WIP" page on the
web site (even if I'm not a web guy, I volunteer
the maintenance of it).

* CI-built pinebook-pro images [1]
* other ARM boards
* ppc64 & ppc
* Hurd VM
* Full source bootstrap

And probably other things I missed.

This should complement the ML archives, IRC logs or
blog, with pointers to (hopefully) more current infos
on those subjects.

WDYT ?

[1] I only (accidentally) discovered today that those
exist

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 11:07 +0100, Vincent Legoll wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'd like to reiterate my proposal to document our
> ongoing projects, maybe with a "WIP" page on the
> web site (even if I'm not a web guy, I volunteer
> the maintenance of it).
> 
> * CI-built pinebook-pro images [1]
> * other ARM boards
> * ppc64 & ppc
> * Hurd VM
> * Full source bootstrap
> 
> And probably other things I missed.
> 
> This should complement the ML archives, IRC logs or
> blog, with pointers to (hopefully) more current infos
> on those subjects.
> 
> WDYT ?
> 
> [1] I only (accidentally) discovered today that those
> exist
> 

That would be really awesome, I suggest that we introduce such a
mechanism in a way that ANYONE can edit and that we moderate or filter
spam after the fact, not *before*. As gatekeeping in this way will make
the WIP documents edits grind to a halt and not be a viable solution.

We could use a wiki for this, but inspired by Wikipedia's model where
one does not need to register, or that registration is approved with an
easy process where many people have power to approve registrations so
registrations are never stuck waiting for approval. After such
registrations, users must be able to make unlimited edits to the wiki
as they wish. If there's problematic edits, we can moderate and filter
spam after the fact.

These are to me requirements for such an initiative to succeed.

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Re: Document our WIP

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Vincent Legoll <vincent.legoll@gmail.com> writes:

> I'd like to reiterate my proposal to document our
> ongoing projects, maybe with a "WIP" page on the
> web site (even if I'm not a web guy, I volunteer
> the maintenance of it).

There’s a wiki that could be used for this purpose:
https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix

-- 
Ricardo

Re: Document our WIP

[Joshua Branson]

Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:

> Vincent Legoll <vincent.legoll@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I'd like to reiterate my proposal to document our
>> ongoing projects, maybe with a "WIP" page on the
>> web site (even if I'm not a web guy, I volunteer
>> the maintenance of it).
>
> There’s a wiki that could be used for this purpose:
> https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix

Good point.  Perhaps we should link to this wiki from the guix website?

--
Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix)
Sent from Emacs and Gnus
  https://gnucode.me
  https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels
  https://propernaming.org
  "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help
enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 11:32 -0400, Joshua Branson wrote:
> Good point.  Perhaps we should link to this wiki from the guix
> website?

I think that we should do that for this wiki resource to be really
useful. Widespread knowledge of the location is a must.

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Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:44 PM Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> wrote:
> > I'd like to reiterate my proposal to document our
> > ongoing projects, maybe with a "WIP" page on the
> > web site (even if I'm not a web guy, I volunteer
> > the maintenance of it).
>
> There’s a wiki that could be used for this purpose:
> https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix

I'm OK with hosting that page there, but I still think
discoverability from a link on:
https://guix.gnu.org/en/help/
will help...

I don't know if libreplanet's wiki meets Léo's requirements,
but this is probably OK from a PoV of spam management.

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

On Saturday, March 27, 2021 3:34 PM, Léo Le Bouter <lle-bout@zaclys.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 11:32 -0400, Joshua Branson wrote:
>
> > Good point. Perhaps we should link to this wiki from the guix
> > website?
>
> I think that we should do that for this wiki resource to be really
> useful. Widespread knowledge of the location is a must.

What do you think about adding a "Wiki" item to the "About" menu of the website linking to that Guix group on LibrePlanet? At least as a quick solution to try out.

Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

Looks like we have a plan.

Now for the hard part, how do we name it ?

"Guix/WIP" or "Guix/WorkInProgress"
or
"Guix/Hacking", "Guix/CoolStuff", "Guix/BleedingEdge", "Guix/NewShiny"

Some of those may be half-jokes, I'd personally go with WorkInProgress.

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 15:44 +0000, Luis Felipe wrote:
> What do you think about adding a "Wiki" item to the "About" menu of
> the website linking to that Guix group on LibrePlanet? At least as a
> quick solution to try out.

I think this would be the best thing to do, however I don't know if I
can do that myself, nor that I would have authority to make such
change.

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Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

On Saturday, March 27, 2021 3:41 PM, Vincent Legoll <vincent.legoll@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 3:44 PM Ricardo Wurmus rekado@elephly.net wrote:
>
> > > I'd like to reiterate my proposal to document our
> > > ongoing projects, maybe with a "WIP" page on the
> > > web site (even if I'm not a web guy, I volunteer
> > > the maintenance of it).
> >
> > There’s a wiki that could be used for this purpose:
> > https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix
>
> I'm OK with hosting that page there, but I still think
> discoverability from a link on:
> https://guix.gnu.org/en/help/
> will help...

Or that, yes. I can send a patch to add a Wiki entry to the Help page instead of adding a "Wiki" item to the "About" menu.

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 16:41 +0100, Vincent Legoll wrote:
> I don't know if libreplanet's wiki meets Léo's requirements,
> but this is probably OK from a PoV of spam management.

I could create an FSF account with automated approval by email.

It seems I cannot create new pages, however it seems we can set page
protection rules arbitrarily:

Page protection
Edit	Allow all users (infinite)
Move	Allow all users (infinite)

This is good, however creating new pages under WorkInProgress for
information on specific WIP projects or else looks like it would be
required for me.

Does someone know if we can do that on Libreplanet? Else I am afraid
this an arbitrary limitation harming our goal here.

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Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 4:54 PM Luis Felipe
<luis.felipe.la@protonmail.com> wrote:
> Or that, yes. I can send a patch to add a Wiki entry to the Help page instead
> of adding a "Wiki" item to the "About" menu.

Or even better a "Wiki" title bar entry of its own, like we have one
for "Blog"...

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 15:54 +0000, Luis Felipe wrote:
> Or that, yes. I can send a patch to add a Wiki entry to the Help page
> instead of adding a "Wiki" item to the "About" menu.

I think we should be looking forward to including it in the primary
menu and not hidden in some submenu.

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Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

On Saturday, March 27, 2021 4:04 PM, Léo Le Bouter <lle-bout@zaclys.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 15:54 +0000, Luis Felipe wrote:
>
> > Or that, yes. I can send a patch to add a Wiki entry to the Help page
> > instead of adding a "Wiki" item to the "About" menu.
>
> I think we should be looking forward to including it in the primary
> menu and not hidden in some submenu.

I'm fine with that too (for now). I can send that patch.

The reason I didn't suggest that, though, is that the primary menu has already grown too big in my opinion. And, with the current design, the visibility of the primary menu changes depending on screen width: The primary menu is hidden behind a primary menu button for screens narrower than 920 px (which may be too soon already).

So, adding more primary items to that menu means the menu has to be hidden for even wider screens than 920. An that's from the English point of view only; I haven't checked how the header bar is behaving for other locales...

That said, I have a pending proposal to redesign the header bar to behave similar to headers in GNOME desktop applications (it could be simpler and follow already used conventions that people may be familiar with).

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 16:42 +0000, Luis Felipe wrote:
> I'm fine with that too (for now). I can send that patch.
> 
> The reason I didn't suggest that, though, is that the primary menu
> has already grown too big in my opinion. And, with the current
> design, the visibility of the primary menu changes depending on
> screen width: The primary menu is hidden behind a primary menu button
> for screens narrower than 920 px (which may be too soon already).
> 
> So, adding more primary items to that menu means the menu has to be
> hidden for even wider screens than 920. An that's from the English
> point of view only; I haven't checked how the header bar is behaving
> for other locales...
> 
> That said, I have a pending proposal to redesign the header bar to
> behave similar to headers in GNOME desktop applications (it could be
> simpler and follow already used conventions that people may be
> familiar with).

After looking more closely at the help page, I think it could be
acceptable to have it there too. But is the wiki an help resource?

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Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

---
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
https://luis-felipe.gitlab.io/

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Saturday, March 27, 2021 4:50 PM, Léo Le Bouter <lle-bout@zaclys.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2021-03-27 at 16:42 +0000, Luis Felipe wrote:
>
> > I'm fine with that too (for now). I can send that patch.
> > The reason I didn't suggest that, though, is that the primary menu

[...]

> After looking more closely at the help page, I think it could be
> acceptable to have it there too. But is the wiki an help resource?

Well, right now most information seems more related to planning, but, with some sectioning, it could be used for additional help documentation. There is at least one page in that category https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/KeyboardLayout.

Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 5:42 PM Luis Felipe
<luis.felipe.la@protonmail.com> wrote:
> The reason I didn't suggest that, though, is that the primary menu has already
> grown too big in my opinion. And, with the current design, the visibility of the
> primary menu changes depending on screen width: The primary menu is hidden
> behind a primary menu button for screens narrower than 920 px (which may be
> too soon already).

I can hear that.

OK, no more top bar pollution, Let's get it in "Help", but we could
make this one
a submenu with direct links (the same list as the sections from the help page).

There's something strange, the default link to the doc is for the /en/ language
when I selected the french web site, this could go directly to the
french version.

BTW, there's no rush to change this, as Leo, I can't create a page on
libreplanet's
wiki

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 5:50 PM Léo Le Bouter <lle-bout@zaclys.net> wrote:
> After looking more closely at the help page, I think it could be
> acceptable to have it there too. But is the wiki an help resource?

Even if it may not be today, we are proposing something that could
turn it into a helpful resource. So OK with me.

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

On Saturday, March 27, 2021 5:02 PM, Vincent Legoll <vincent.legoll@gmail.com> wrote:


> BTW, there's no rush to change this, as Leo, I can't create a page on
> libreplanet's
> wiki

I see a newly created page for Works in Progress, though:

https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/WorkInProgress

And creating subpages seems to work too. For example, if I visit the following URL, there is the option to create the page and clicking on it takes me to the page creation view:

https://libreplanet.org/wiki?title=Group:Guix/WorkInProgress/XYZ

Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

The first bits are in, look:
https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/WorkInProgress
Add / enhance to tell what is running, where to find good recipes...

To create pages you have to score a few edits (I went
typo-hunting for a bit). I think about 5 should do.

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 7:11 PM Luis Felipe
<luis.felipe.la@protonmail.com> wrote:
> I see a newly created page for Works in Progress, though

Yep, my announce and your email crossed past each other...

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

On Saturday, March 27, 2021 6:12 PM, Vincent Legoll <vincent.legoll@gmail.com> wrote:

> The first bits are in, look:
> https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/WorkInProgress
> Add / enhance to tell what is running, where to find good recipes...
>
> To create pages you have to score a few edits (I went
> typo-hunting for a bit). I think about 5 should do.

Oh, I didn't know that. I had edited the wiki before, so I didn't find any restrictions.

Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

Hello,

Mathieu, thanks for the additions.

Can someone having some experience with pinebook-pro
double-check this item ?

Vagrant, you seem to have some good results, can you add
something about them ?

Any other subjects worth mentionning there ?

https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/WorkInProgress

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi!

Vincent Legoll <vincent.legoll@gmail.com> skribis:

> I'd like to reiterate my proposal to document our
> ongoing projects, maybe with a "WIP" page on the
> web site (even if I'm not a web guy, I volunteer
> the maintenance of it).

To me, a good way to make sure work remains “in progress” is to post
regular updates to this list, and then to write blog posts for the web
site whenever an important milestone is reached.

I think a web page is likely to quickly become outdated… unless said
work transitions from “in progress” to “stalled”.  :-)

Ludo’.

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:37 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> To me, a good way to make sure work remains “in progress” is to post
> regular updates to this list, and then to write blog posts for the
> web
> site whenever an important milestone is reached.
> 
> I think a web page is likely to quickly become outdated… unless said
> work transitions from “in progress” to “stalled”.  :-)

I feel like using the mailing list fails at solving one concern that is
discoverability of WIP problems for people to show up and help tackle
them, even if they were abandonned by the people who started them. Not
everyone can handle the load of incoming mail in the ML. On the GNOME
40 upgrade for example I linked the mailing list thread on the wiki
page also. The wiki page is also more likely to get outdated if it
doesnt have great visibility on the GNU Guix official website, that,
for sure.

Léo

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Re: Document our WIP

[Leo Famulari]

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On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 07:52:30PM +0200, Léo Le Bouter wrote:
> On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:37 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> > To me, a good way to make sure work remains “in progress” is to post
> > regular updates to this list, and then to write blog posts for the
> > web
> > site whenever an important milestone is reached.
> > 
> > I think a web page is likely to quickly become outdated… unless said
> > work transitions from “in progress” to “stalled”.  :-)
> 
> I feel like using the mailing list fails at solving one concern that is
> discoverability of WIP problems for people to show up and help tackle
> them, even if they were abandonned by the people who started them. Not
> everyone can handle the load of incoming mail in the ML. On the GNOME
> 40 upgrade for example I linked the mailing list thread on the wiki
> page also. The wiki page is also more likely to get outdated if it
> doesnt have great visibility on the GNU Guix official website, that,
> for sure.

Yeah, I agree that it's hard to learn about "what's cooking" when you
first arrive at the mailing lists.

It's true that wikis tend to get out of date, but I think that it won't
be too bad for this use case. At least, it won't be worse than the
mailing lists, for newcomers who want to know about longer-term efforts
like the GNOME upgrade.

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Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

Hi,


On Wednesday, March 31, 2021 6:16 PM, Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 07:52:30PM +0200, Léo Le Bouter wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:37 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> >
> > > To me, a good way to make sure work remains “in progress” is to post
> > > regular updates to this list, and then to write blog posts for the
> > > web
> > > site whenever an important milestone is reached.
> > > I think a web page is likely to quickly become outdated… unless said
> > > work transitions from “in progress” to “stalled”. :-)
> >
> > I feel like using the mailing list fails at solving one concern that is
> > discoverability of WIP problems for people to show up and help tackle
> > them, even if they were abandonned by the people who started them. Not
> > everyone can handle the load of incoming mail in the ML. On the GNOME
> > 40 upgrade for example I linked the mailing list thread on the wiki
> > page also. The wiki page is also more likely to get outdated if it
> > doesnt have great visibility on the GNU Guix official website, that,
> > for sure.
>
> Yeah, I agree that it's hard to learn about "what's cooking" when you
> first arrive at the mailing lists.
>
> It's true that wikis tend to get out of date, but I think that it won't
> be too bad for this use case. At least, it won't be worse than the
> mailing lists, for newcomers who want to know about longer-term efforts
> like the GNOME upgrade.

I just sent a patch to include a link to the wiki in the Help page (https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47555).

If the patch is applied, I can send a separate patch to update the Help menu as Vincent suggested:

Help
• GNU Guix Manual
• Videos
• Cookbook
• GNU Manuals
• Wiki
• IRC Chat
• Mailing lists

If people think it's ok.

Re: Document our WIP

[Gurjeet Singh]

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:17 AM Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> wrote:
>
> Yeah, I agree that it's hard to learn about "what's cooking" when you
> first arrive at the mailing lists.
>
> It's true that wikis tend to get out of date, but I think that it won't
> be too bad for this use case. At least, it won't be worse than the
> mailing lists, for newcomers who want to know about longer-term efforts
> like the GNOME upgrade.

May I suggest the Postgres project's model of maintaining a Todo list
as a Wiki page, which shows the readers what they can contribute to,
links to past discussions on the items, etc. This way even if the
progress on a patch stops, someone, at some point in future can revive
it based on the info in the Wiki. Of course, it'd be useless unless it
is regularly updated.

Also, it must be discoverable.  Postgres, for example, links it as
follows, and the folks, usually who specialize in community outreach,
regularly update it [6]. This model has worked quite well for them, so
I think it's a good model to try to emulate.

Postgres home page [1] > Community  [2] > Wiki [3] > Contributor Info
> Developer Info [4] > Todo list [5].

[1]: https://www.postgresql.org/
[2]: https://www.postgresql.org/community/
[3]: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Main_Page
[4]: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Development_information
[5]: https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Todo
[6]: https://wiki.postgresql.org/index.php?title=Todo&action=history

Best regards,
--
Gurjeet Singh http://gurjeet.singh.im/

Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Thu, 2021-04-01 at 21:33 +0000, Luis Felipe wrote:
> I just sent a patch to include a link to the wiki in the Help page (
> https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47555).
> 
> If the patch is applied, I can send a separate patch to update the
> Help menu as Vincent suggested:
> 
> Help
> • GNU Guix Manual
> • Videos
> • Cookbook
> • GNU Manuals
> • Wiki
> • IRC Chat
> • Mailing lists
> 
> If people think it's ok.

Thanks a lot for the patch Luis! I am really happy it was merged now!

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Re: Document our WIP

[Léo Le Bouter]

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On Wed, 2021-03-31 at 14:16 -0400, Leo Famulari wrote:
> 
> Yeah, I agree that it's hard to learn about "what's cooking" when you
> first arrive at the mailing lists.
> 
> It's true that wikis tend to get out of date, but I think that it
> won't
> be too bad for this use case. At least, it won't be worse than the
> mailing lists, for newcomers who want to know about longer-term
> efforts
> like the GNOME upgrade.

I am thinking we could establish policy so that the WIP wiki page is an
index to mailing list threads, git branches or other "updatable"
locations so that it is less likely to need updating and therefore
stays updated w.r.t. it's main purpose: finding out about WIP work.

The policy would say that one must create a mailing list thread, git
branch or else and link it there and **NOT** include original
information on the wiki page but rather just link to ML/git/else.

We could write such policy at the top of the page so contributors to it
can easily see it.

What do you think?

Léo

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Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

Hello,

On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:35 AM Léo Le Bouter <lle-bout@zaclys.net> wrote:
> I am thinking we could establish policy so that the WIP wiki page is an
> index to mailing list threads, git branches or other "updatable"
> locations so that it is less likely to need updating and therefore
> stays updated w.r.t. it's main purpose: finding out about WIP work.
>
> The policy would say that one must create a mailing list thread, git
> branch or else and link it there and **NOT** include original
> information on the wiki page but rather just link to ML/git/else.
>
> We could write such policy at the top of the page so contributors to it
> can easily see it.
>
> What do you think?

It can be an index, but I personally prefer if it can be a bit more than
that, so I don't see strict policy being useful. Just collectively try to
keep it sane, organized and as up to date as possible.

It already is only an index to ML, blog, git branches for some items,
and I think that's OK. I also think that the entries with a bit more
context (arch support, mainly) are also useful in explaining what
one can expect from that item.

Thanks

-- 
Vincent Legoll

Re: Document our WIP

[Luis Felipe]

Hi,

On Thursday, April 1, 2021 9:33 PM, Luis Felipe >

> I just sent a patch to include a link to the wiki in the Help page (https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47555).
>
> If the patch is applied, I can send a separate patch to update the Help menu as Vincent suggested:
>
> Help
> • GNU Guix Manual
> • Videos
> • Cookbook
> • GNU Manuals
> • Wiki
> • IRC Chat
> • Mailing lists

I've just sent a patch to add this menu (https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47663).

Re: Document our WIP

[Vincent Legoll]

Hi,

On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 9:55 PM Luis Felipe
<luis.felipe.la@protonmail.com> wrote:
> > I just sent a patch to include a link to the wiki in the Help page (https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47555).

I'm sorry to not have given feedback, the Help page addition is great
! Nice wiki icon too.

> > If the patch is applied, I can send a separate patch to update the Help menu as Vincent suggested:
> >
> > Help
> > • GNU Guix Manual
> > • Videos
> > • Cookbook
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> I've just sent a patch to add this menu (https://issues.guix.gnu.org/47663).

I'm not sure if I can help, but this LGTM (untrained eyes)...

Thanks a lot

-- 
Vincent Legoll