From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Subject: bug#38360: Retroarch does violate FSDG Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 13:10:46 +0100 Message-ID: <87zhgdr2d5.fsf@web.de> References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> <87d0dc2u2z.fsf@web.de> <87wobi3s9f.fsf@netris.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51355) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ib1bY-00037I-G6 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 07:12:05 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ib1bW-0006qQ-Vu for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 07:12:04 -0500 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:56076) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ib1bW-0006qL-NR for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 07:12:02 -0500 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ib1bW-0004d2-JT for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Nov 2019 07:12:02 -0500 Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-Message-ID: In-reply-to: <87wobi3s9f.fsf@netris.org> List-Id: Bug reports for GNU Guix List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guix-bounces+gcggb-bug-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "bug-Guix" To: Mark H Weaver Cc: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark H Weaver writes: > Hi Arne, > > Arne Babenhauserheide writes: > >> Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix wr= ites: >> >>> Guix, >>> >>> This is not about Schr=C3=B6dinger's proprietary-until-proven-innocent >>> binary. The Updater includes at least two cores explicitly marked as >>> non-free in Debian: >>> >>> libretro-genesisplusgx >>> libretro-snes9x >> >> In non-free because they are non-commercial, not because they >> treacherous to users. > > Your words "In non-free because they are non-commercial" are unclear. > I guess you meant to say "They are in non-free because they prohibit > commercial use". Is that right? Yes. More exactly: They are in non-free, because they prohibit commercial use, not because they are treacherous to users. Most proprietary programs are treacherous because they give their creators power over their users. This is not the case for these cores. >> This is a distinction the FSF used to make until 2010 but dropped since = then: >> https://web.archive.org/web/20100126044451/http://www.gnu.org/philosophy= /categories.html#semi-freeSoftware > > What distinction do you think was dropped by the FSF since 2010? The distinction that was dropped is that non-commercial software which provides the source and allows non-commercial use, changing and sharing is less problematic that closed-source software. The distinction to call that software semi-free. > If you're suggesting that the Free Software Definition was changed in > 2010 to allow programs that prohibit commercial use, you are certainly > mistaken. I=E2=80=99m not suggesting that. I=E2=80=99m saying that before 2010 it had= a friendlier stance towards this non-commercial software. I don=E2=80=99t know why that was changed, but I would assume that people a= bused non-commercial licensing to trick people into using software for which they would have to pay to use commercially. But this is not the case here: The non-commercial cores do not offer an option to pay for commercial rights. They are non-commercial because this used to be the only way how you could release them without being sued by Nintento, Sega, Sony & co. > Moreover, the GNU FSDG states: > > A free system distribution must not steer users towards obtaining any > nonfree information for practical use, or encourage them to do so. Now the question is whether allowing them to obtain such information is encouragement or steering towards. I agree that if there are no cores packaged, so users are forced to use the online list to run retroarch at all is steering. However when this is not the easiest way to use retroarch, it is no longer steering them towards that. And if there are cores available, retroarch presents the cores first, along with license information (or at least it should display license information, since there=E2=80=99s already a license-line shown). > where "information for practical use" is defined as: > > =E2=80=9CInformation for practical use=E2=80=9D includes software, docu= mentation, > fonts, and other data that has direct functional applications. It > does not include artistic works that have an aesthetic (rather than > functional) purpose, or statements of opinion or judgment. > > I disagree with this, because I consider aestetics and and statements of opinion or judgement as functional, too. They function on the mind instead of computers, but they do function. This is why what I write is copyleft licensed where I have that option. But that=E2=80=99s another discussion. For what I=E2=80=99m saying in practice, see my other longer email. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3iXEgACgkQE++NRSQD w+sS1BAAivKLdXaFg8tjoA6n8vKU9bLiTXAYcboXaGtwq5p4mBQKAaox+4wUn2ny Z6DuusuE7jfpROdzSRTOWbyRwdX0vrpt/kQQfEzGDq3uWyf/UwLjr8fDXOo8KLOq /HymMYgCJXY7oOruGGv8bppRrX/C9t2uX7BUKLREDYVS0ShD2s+a2bkDABOoaLQK jXU8i/H7VW4BW0HSN5zBtJSWZ59Mdnwwi0rOCdGEj+W3qkuELhK3b0BbFoT80xtQ QwiWgiUzc2b7o7CXWhrfwUG2mTYEuxji/QrzRK7TitcJ2/ua5AYlXlWI9UjC+0IE YkIXqmKoLuit179I7n3TOyAefujZNgzOJmaecWF37vkBp0q3k0hmeuqg6NBFogoJ av04o/cAugpNwg/X8KWR0L8S3OckqO2XwyThn63iF+gKI97pg6iroFtU1rbk9+Kt HzGcFNIByCK00adyrn+AKberVm4zwJklxnXgopAJFug0DjkjlKdFYbtTZwX3rMwu e6ZmC8AElPWSB3Vz6yG08cLRwstMgpoNlcnBMKjwTdT5BjJhRN9VXKpsIXBuJnve UhKTUJ9VucgjI6+01Cqz1/JjNNUxidJ2IXDBOZ6w91Tjb1CplCdZHWr5Fk1keBbG 4WnEFzIIGXLwBViUQXbE7umGs/OHVI2IIoe0cyjDhRp3pBQY1u6IswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd4lxJAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIPJQD/2iERxgn jHYr0/rbzADCc61ebYDmrWRWw8SIT0CewHMsfgyDlOkTUQWudiHM5/lrtXsxnlaA LvRc1Z4kx0Eung+D/v9pAnipLNyOavy8XnotuCrX5LcB4Sj44oDxcYsrGyo/lwUT K3FyA/mpLQ9kdUSXw0XHvEZqIEcmnHPTpjPl =xm3s -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--