From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id kFM+C63RymPVSAAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:38:53 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id OCZBC63RymN6TgEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:38:53 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B91CD2F948 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:38:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pIvLK-0005eW-3Z; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:38:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pIvL0-0005dT-Rp for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:38:02 -0500 Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([178.21.23.139]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pIvKy-0000JW-Bc for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 12:38:02 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by disroot.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DA240F10; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:37:57 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: SPAM Filter at disroot.org Received: from knopi.disroot.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (disroot.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4vhqUTAnnVXq; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 18:37:54 +0100 (CET) From: Akib Azmain Turja DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=disroot.org; s=mail; t=1674236273; bh=+N0JMFP3Jqb+HuWbRHWNWpKirtTsdU0ZYeHv0YQVC24=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date; b=LJtvtv0O6sHcwVkSpWar2Q4149AlbYRIt4arFk55t3kv0b+5P4ivHejmJ6Lw3HT0q /8YrSPPPu6bLGGduxF8qCyviRbNMZkPTpHcQTwO3thgv0FqDqONf8Xf0stXnmDBLm5 o30j168XN8XsV6RfrdyRGCdGIVjysiW90FIrMrbu9QYWUy+NDFrsmmFqoL9U5xhluw LHjhbuz9CV7dEDMdvDCnRyx6jnXT7Dy5AnG1Xbhi3b1OukfnF3M7zatAvO350kxasv 7vdurbxtTZy2StiSWeZdR5UvT7w4q/FZiirHDt2KzJjPztWymSJqOxCYsIP7sMOZeb voBsVX2bdBZrA== To: Csepp Cc: Paul Jewell , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Packages grow, no longer fit on a =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=92=BE?= In-Reply-To: <865yd1p6eq.fsf@riseup.net> (Csepp's message of "Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:30:36 +0100") References: <87tu0s7otg.fsf@inria.fr> <3586bd3c-2d97-ca0d-f722-be08a7440e1e@teulu.org> <87pmbaqtxr.fsf@disroot.org> <865yd1p6eq.fsf@riseup.net> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 23:34:53 +0600 Message-ID: <87y1pxjeiq.fsf@disroot.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=akib@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674236333; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=5BWx4v+S0ob5a1ENUoQLGJ9tI9HP3/FRfSW8fL3qByE=; b=N9Uof6fJ57h4RfuNDk+PCkvZLVvaPK60az2YNWLO7h6YUZRrUoFnKc4nu+DASpjk2HDwgX MCu9hKRdn2ulR+ZTsWj2dXn0ZL4rY+0EgpayH5WmxJJMMIg/XdcprxRYth84vZ0ZQbNit2 KwLNgJYsbU2D/NE3dYTsy7e7UUwtR0pEgF9syo8yB0jFcp/qigJtCUWC6E12V7IO/RrDJS YcAgdjNXam6oslC3L0qisHu5WIbHqZV0lhV2yxxy1C7vRP2IGAMpv/BLbDFJq4SwKQa3Qn D00XRGt/bHSOKmCQ7QukjL2VK0XhlOKS522HL0VX4+hlr6vSSqP5xfzAEglTRg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=disroot.org header.s=mail header.b=LJtvtv0O; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=disroot.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674236333; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kiIDdHNHVkvtLp8IYL18TFVImO5prQVFLgzdFgdW4ObJnUHuIj0jgMLdzZtFxUPyrJqu/P eIL6oDcJM46tjF8VVMEoA+RjijXtO50RIkgZHJvplXIyg7gHSiPLmIjqAMCGE0K9ulXU8e kuXzS9/1PKFpNv9/DDIgo6vAPeOyDvIDKtVgAsuJ/qEwPJlQIUrZlzlkqZOOn3osojCc4m 4caEKN+G7NWTPlairPtKMfvTwIw//MMUA8mpm/mqx/R7FMGoB1YCguOkeFAlt/9N1nWChN tcBr8eKEy2u/QhrvUA+SELF5CgRXNBVlCOLz+ozzPp2KS2ZMGoRkEJzFCfdfuQ== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.38 X-Spam-Score: -6.38 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B91CD2F948 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=disroot.org header.s=mail header.b=LJtvtv0O; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=disroot.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-TUID: sCxLlhFatrh5 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Csepp writes: [...] >>> It strikes me that this is like King Canute holding back the >>> tide. Package size growth is pretty inevitable, and even if work now >>> can bring the size down to that of a CD, the same problem will occur >>> in the not too distant future. >>> >> >> But we should really try to keep them low. >> >>> Is it really a problem? >> >> YES!!!!!!!!! >> >> Big packages means, it takes more space. If a package grows by 700 MB, >> installed on 10,000 computers, ~70 TB (70,000,000 MB) is wasted. You >> could use that precious storage to save your dad's photo, your favorite >> music, your child's video calling you "daddy/mummy" for the first time, >> etc. You would need to get more storage for that storing those >> invaluable things, so you would need more storage devices. When you buy >> more storage, the demand of increases, and therefore the manufacturing >> of storage devices increase. The more devices are manufactured, the >> more carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emission. >> >> Again, if the packages is downloaded 100 times every day, ~70 GB (70000 >> MB) of bandwidth is wasted every day. Someone on the network could use >> that to do some more important thing, like video calling a relative >> living far away. Moreover, it takes time to get the extra 700 MB for >> everyone. Assuming it takes 8 minutes on average, ~13.33 hours (800 >> minutes) of time is wasted everyday. We have limited time in our lives, >> we shouldn't waste the time. This extra ~70 GB of transmission means >> more load on the network, more load on the network devices, and >> therefore more power consumption. The more power consumption, the more >> greenhouse gas emission, since we're fossil fuel dependent. If your >> country uses nuclear power, the extra nuclear waste is a threat for the >> environment. >> >> The more greenhouse gas, the more greenhouse effect, the more global >> warming, the more climate change. You will just destroy the earth for >> future yourself and the future generation. What will you answer to >> them? >> >>> Please educate me! :) >> >> It's my pleasure to make someone aware. >> I hope this was enough. :) >> If not, just ask! >> >>> >>> -- >>> Paul >>> >>> > > Well said. Gonna add to this that developers are overwhelmingly from > privileged backgrounds. Just because we don't have a lot of users on > the mailing list who have to use satellite internet on ancient laptops > does not mean those (potential) users are not out there and wouldn't > benefit from our distro not being a bloated mess. Which sadly it kind > of is currently. I wholeheartedly recommend trying to use it on an old > netbook or an armhf device from time to time. > Like others have said: if you want to develop efficient software, use a > slow machine. :) I have a slow machine from about 10 years ago, and I'm really happy with it. (I'm writing from this machine.) I also have a slow unstable internet connection, so I understand the pain of download hundreds of MB of data without pause and resume support. (I couldn't download the latest Guix GNU/Hurd QEMU image (just around 293 MB maybe?) even trying 8-10 times.) =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEyVTKmrtL6kNBe3FRVTX89U2IYWsFAmPK0L4ACgkQVTX89U2I YWtxoBAAltnaDPoI/OIk60e80x/73heVA3AS0Oil1MqK57xw89aCxRXZYc9qC4U9 czFStIEdWVsC9v5GsVykqsts3sJOeTHN191UQC5vxFsMDEYRmzjTDpnx2UdOV14O YPWIMxHx4qe0LbrlKQvKER4vwiS9UIjC3hg7SU6WtXGHipRWDIqGgv2iGwy/EA1h kqQbTdZNQP4THhNuppXDo68tqawTLHcxN6xHIWqZJtdLKG8XEllqmVQerb28F+gU 7wQHvpB4Q0RE/pDAiFW0xbS04HXukHkXQZMZg9ZfeEvRCwpf8YCJesbLA6FV9ryk 8YWPWyj7nvEVXJxC580DFYBi2g42Lyj1HetH8PReHBMJEvrku4YGePsejq1Rbq3v lUd6woU/niE0J/ilLqyeKS7KzpKlgJ3IiC9GWNCNdtWV45eBKWJbo+byZBhcO3sF 8207cMq8AczvjGxBdWXn3C+R7A+2N1Cf8ll62qLKlwDTk8CwSY2+u/rMubLbw5qH xzVG9/t8ZfoVX67thf6vVOEcgt+AkLk0jgokWZSieW/Gu8pAQxQZLTCRGOxbCNu8 K7DJEPCuJpjp1svBxxHDJMcyno2O8VV1yIMzLbin+AwuLKjiTZZZDIoz0tNOJY0C Dw1wz2lALqjnUJ0m0+LgxkY90eL5FXYQD1p1Uxaiql7RNPmcOLc= =Z3gD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--