From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id CPuAIWOUM2LgTwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:04:51 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id oJHXHmOUM2LkDAEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:04:51 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 043F1121AF for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 21:04:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33906 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nUwMY-0006km-Nx for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:04:46 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54192) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nUwMC-0006kX-Ff for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:04:24 -0400 Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34] (port=35834 helo=mail-io1-xd34.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nUwMA-0004Sa-Lx for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:04:23 -0400 Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id l18so7199123ioj.2 for ; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:04:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=2OnPEDyPgGGJqlVicNq+QMwd5NHwXt1KLG+2tDuFyOo=; b=GHksda362LCyFH5pGeVhtlkhgA5xgi9+XFWGlGiwsDyr7RYUjUh4BBlzOqHv9hvs5H 4MKTpGyHocQtLObgb+moLz1lpyUdjdyYkg1aYgukFTQaHLvRWLXRG083UCTT55i48qd2 ze1tWhaBi9p29v4v5YWWFjIBx92gGhPElv2Qb3Esznh41F/ElAFvvu+ZJSThyVXDBXQG UEjwNPtOp2gR4XdvhPRhXCMy3py4Jd3jwI+rTr8GHbhQXiXFo9OUAnG9YXqFxNwKRB+p aRp2P2fMIiXE0TFTKnhdK3BgqbRw8FalrJQINsWfRuAX+YIpnSmWcpz8KFDmZUZ5q9k4 CD3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=2OnPEDyPgGGJqlVicNq+QMwd5NHwXt1KLG+2tDuFyOo=; b=xyX+DI2dHM32bqRULGr0nc5UsHHfuEcei9WqXgqdWoGxHdEZd1ouzXs6Sdr3f+OoDV PvnwgLzSSbHP9gWnWiPPtgcrV1vZnC4xD2y4rcugRmaDkjRp+6WLDAx7Z90fB0ynysJJ Uu9xs+rgQ9F8ROzr29pythSIkfyujSadBh1qL2ygOdJdRsfEY9uTR09tmhZsP3v5oAHb 8hQq00dx9bdlr4wFng8ixyWEUZk34D1WcWwBCa8UBQhWSNBSRmJgifyxcNiyZvVWuvEB rncuzdCZbtRcvAVVZOjfFwL4Z/3X+rOGPgyImYJC2p6sjhe8h4KXL1yWdZSaJCH9TpgC g3FA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5318szf1WYBGgZjijSJRpg5y4peEvmHQh7S8WNC0p7vXY7MTibzA 3UTpI17AQJ+k9cQTTZDWMqyerInyJeE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyem0UrGy6JZzJWHobqBNn48kcGGmxR+HQKD7L5UFJEoTNmD05XvBKn/BPQd3vfThKpjJFnAg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:2402:b0:317:b534:2b8c with SMTP id z2-20020a056638240200b00317b5342b8cmr3153948jat.60.1647547460723; Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from washu-v4 (172-221-246-205.res.spectrum.com. [172.221.246.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l1-20020a056e021c0100b002c668d6ec39sm3587122ilh.53.2022.03.17.13.04.19 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:04:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Cox-Buday To: Pjotr Prins Subject: Re: Building a software toolchain that works References: <20220314202659.oftyvymu7tjiycba@thebird.nl> Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 15:04:18 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20220314202659.oftyvymu7tjiycba@thebird.nl> (Pjotr Prins's message of "Mon, 14 Mar 2022 21:26:59 +0100") Message-ID: <87v8wcs5vh.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd34.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.659, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Guix Devel Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1647547491; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=2OnPEDyPgGGJqlVicNq+QMwd5NHwXt1KLG+2tDuFyOo=; b=itAFeZJTr/h+cjTV3E4gB8rD9mPUdqT73N5llxflw+grY9gDhm458YgSoon04+CkvXQeW5 qv8dhGtvPOeZnNxvLe2c9WboB9MFNwSsaaTAGasBO2nvxYNCr5oI7CENqCBjO5cP0hU16I 3/wqO3ZT5TuaQ7bSE8maic/MH1GhYDetB9qNg797lOPCu/jpvR+HslN0lgd5ZEsXByEHXv j2MzSPh55JPILDJIugbGoEtEvjT9UAQQ0zrspyIT57xNNE0IaIAjx15eI+3kUw8/1PDqNv 6gW8rXIeg1gP/TDcvBG27Ru5WDUKaTB2Scwa2GdCh+PAqlGpxC+bAGEAbvglxg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1647547491; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=U/HD2/ptuS8JXtXO7/DPCvTiEqqOC4dbcXYHF59r7QHOzO+Npd2jZQDtJwHAF1obdHQAJC 6F9CDmEVmEYHL9w4M8i/I8ZeN8jaxLian5bZ+K3jRguXnYroLe/seo+EZlUjVeNTqb7fAm vgqdWU9lqPNMlE7HBGDOyMjAagvhwlCIg8xlloSGoAN3rrlI7CDI8IIn0esD6LCT+dUY1q 9usvo4fQ3XpyR4zZXE8iDYkv+HgmsNqrlEejvaMy+lB75h5S3DTI3BH2w5FDW/0Le3Q9AI ftLtJ206GfUrERrjdRtENXPY1DmLNlDIhhj/2i2Ri3MpRWWAr2PGn8cdaIxmGg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=GHksda36; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 6.05 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=GHksda36; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 043F1121AF X-Spam-Score: 6.05 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: yheM/VONa9j2 I run Guix everywhere I can, and it's now the only way I develop software. Having said that, I have thought about this issue a little bit, and here's my opinion on why this happens. Pjotr Prins writes: > And they start out as the next new thing to solve all problems! If > they would only would have used Guix to create a coherent build > system... Is Guix not a new thing designed to solve all problems? Why aren't we all just using Nix! Or Make! The reality is that every new system is created because its creators feel that the available systems are deficient in some way. That opinion may not be shared by everyone. In addition, because free software is largely developed in people's spare time, they're going to use whatever tools make them most productive or even just happy. They're probably not thinking about their software against the backdrop of the larger software ecosystem. Finally, build tools which are bespoke to a language or use-case are usually going to be easier to work with because they don't have to consider the general or aggregate cases. So if I only live in 1 ecosystem, I'm going to learn that tool and use it any time I can. Guix solves a lot of issues, and is wonderful to use, but I don't think it solves the most difficult issues: human issues :) -- Katherine