From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
Return-Path: <guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>
Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::])
	(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS
	id qOufNRS8s2KEPwEAbAwnHQ
	(envelope-from <guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 03:04:20 +0200
Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::])
	(using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS
	id iMKENRS8s2KeywAA9RJhRA
	(envelope-from <guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 03:04:20 +0200
Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17])
	(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
	(No client certificate requested)
	by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66B161B7D2
	for <larch@yhetil.org>; Thu, 23 Jun 2022 03:04:20 +0200 (CEST)
Received: from localhost ([::1]:51392 helo=lists1p.gnu.org)
	by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1)
	(envelope-from <guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>)
	id 1o4BGc-0005Ra-UZ
	for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 21:04:19 -0400
Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60960)
 by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256)
 (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org>)
 id 1o4BGL-0005RJ-AX
 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 21:04:01 -0400
Received: from cascadia.aikidev.net ([2600:3c01:e000:267:0:a171:de7:c]:60642)
 by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1)
 (envelope-from <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org>) id 1o4BG7-0007Wg-Gj
 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Jun 2022 21:03:53 -0400
Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:21:7:77:0:20])
 (Authenticated sender: vagrant@aikidev.net)
 by cascadia.aikidev.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 91C2F1ABD9;
 Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:03:41 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple;
 d=reproducible-builds.org; s=1.vagrant; t=1655946221;
 bh=SEzSPe9GM3gJU0VTxKDqb0ACpUwx8jw9rk32SR4FvSw=;
 h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From;
 b=cvQ4ifYVN4HiPLG63M6bm3qOX3bEzoPVTeGExdDLUS8U9PCD/7i2kyKeeaSMowVpi
 ys8BsfnnX1EmrFKs0EFLacx6YBGdHg28rVERuH/DDSx18X6Bbyy5YsuE/Os7LpxxEd
 xY9sUHzIlaTOX2H+Opf3mBYf6nAWpDJWCWKseuPhn1tVjt8rWY8JBiNKfmXHUhEfzW
 M0VawtTHDHZUKt9PrWagkKQXOiw8qhknahUwh7+Epkdw9oto56pZ+gh9kRcHY3qBL1
 nDeG8MoTnq/7MvpOb12fgDsgIwKMQvHaFUUnPoPL847OCN16l3gcD3FMOetCKyZ4zu
 g8FQUuS7eo+hQ==
From: Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org>
To: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com>
Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Set FORCE_SOURCE_DATE=1 by default
In-Reply-To: <87pmj06bpl.fsf@gmail.com>
References: <87bkv0f52g.fsf@contorta> <87tu8d5ozo.fsf@gmail.com>
 <87v8stnsca.fsf@contorta> <87pmj06bpl.fsf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 18:03:37 -0700
Message-ID: <87v8ssry1i.fsf@contorta>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-=";
 micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"
Received-SPF: none client-ip=2600:3c01:e000:267:0:a171:de7:c;
 envelope-from=vagrant@reproducible-builds.org; helo=cascadia.aikidev.net
X-Spam_score_int: -20
X-Spam_score: -2.1
X-Spam_bar: --
X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1,
 DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001,
 SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
X-Spam_action: no action
X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution."
 <guix-devel.gnu.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/options/guix-devel>,
 <mailto:guix-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel>
List-Post: <mailto:guix-devel@gnu.org>
List-Help: <mailto:guix-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guix-devel>,
 <mailto:guix-devel-request@gnu.org?subject=subscribe>
Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org
Sender: "Guix-devel" <guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org>
X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN
X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org
X-Migadu-Country: US
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org;
	s=key1; t=1655946260;
	h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:
	 message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:
	 content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:
	 references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:
	 list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature;
	bh=nzAhYFA12x6fougbRB4PDh0Rrj0tNYEaC95sbNq+iNo=;
	b=RY9ukDt2TwQgvj2yW2UBJV9JiDgDO9kuhevdjGuLOMC/yrc0q1XI9/LR3rHtsFPwnnSKN6
	qhTS5OPzAw122hOF9WN4MRRi3iiO2BVs4Ru/0Kebsk5NLZc3PBRpMA+QYZy/L3OMObYAqe
	hNUsIlegqexZqdA3EOXG+EHf6AfG0QfvDoyejQnRuTdzCk8rxxKwv13F1LF9JdYE8cFSZx
	CND10aWf56NSZZFiX9DCq0II5Vfb7iL/HDRSPF42EOi5TDgPTwRV/YBn2YkWVYlU1pDrwa
	4XRkvY23Ikmv0BApunx73/jwAUTtYp5RQHf0jYPDdj1hoJTj0/n1RJQ9C/EHwQ==
ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655946260; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none;
	b=Tj123roGKobNMmlppHflfUVp0cPLRKw2BNTigFH9YFYeEc+hp1+dDmr31/vfQmezsvs6hr
	e6nvJLic9mPYnNNkK6UTTokR5x50vLsDjvA4Pr2SgnKRJiEZQ6MmoXxnRegVA5s0Wer8jo
	l3kwhsuYMqOr31FED1zMaP2nXXNvl027waiWozObJ6DGoxsP0/K5jPB1g8ycLHv2fOpku8
	iAVRZoS2XAuy54eQnF4tuI/wXqqos66ldqGpl7KeuAxLBS/V72stRigrMLUssmqjuHcTS3
	3r+w0//kUCUdXlBAmOA/ivOFkCanTohyx0dQHn9x6A4+prvDcU9mhyJM8yq6Og==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1;
	aspmx1.migadu.com;
	dkim=pass header.d=reproducible-builds.org header.s=1.vagrant header.b=cvQ4ifYV;
	dmarc=none;
	spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"
X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -10.36
Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com;
	dkim=pass header.d=reproducible-builds.org header.s=1.vagrant header.b=cvQ4ifYV;
	dmarc=none;
	spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"
X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 66B161B7D2
X-Spam-Score: -10.36
X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com
X-TUID: H+WUx6d4B2pG

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

On 2022-06-22, Maxim Cournoyer wrote:
> Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org> writes:
>> On 2022-06-21, Maxim Cournoyer wrote:
>>> Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org> writes:
>>>> That said, some projects (such as texlive) might be worried about
>>>> messing with time too much (I get it, lots of cautionary sci-fi
>>>> stories!), and so you *also* need FORCE_SOURCE_DATE=1 to be set in order
>>>> to respect SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH.
>>>
>>> That seems ridiculous.  Has anyone tried getting in touch with them to
>>> get their arguments about why inventing another variable that means the
>>> same thing was necessary?
>>
>> Yes, there were some fairly long threads about it and I have little hope
>> that revisiting it would change much; it was originally implemented as a
>> texlive specific variable, which was changed to the FORCE_SOURCE_DATE
>> variable to at least avoid the danger of every project inventing their
>> own name-brand variables...

I have tracked it down to these threads:

  https://www.tug.org/pipermail/tex-k/2016-May/thread.html#2691
  https://www.tug.org/pipermail/tex-k/2016-May/thread.html#2712
  https://www.tug.org/pipermail/tex-k/2016-June/thread.html#2721


>>> I'd much prefer challenging that stance than "endorsing" it in Guix :-).
>>> I think it'd be OK to reluctantly add it in as a stop-gap fix in Guix,
>>> but *only* after opening an issue to discuss it upstream and linking to
>>> that issue in Guix.
...
>> I think the pragmatism of making more packages reproducible by conceding
>> to set FORCE_SOURCE_DATE is the appropriate way forward; I agree it
>> feels silly or even maybe would go so far as to say a bit "wrong".
>
> Perhaps to show our stand here we could patch our copy of pdftex with
> 's/FORCE_SOURCE_DATE/SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH/', lest we end up with a grocery
> list of *SOURCE_DATE* variable variants.

Sure, with some technical details fixed up, as I think they are
functionally different, in that FORCE_SOURCE_DATE is a boolean, and
SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH is an integer, though ... Guix sets
SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH=1 ... so it might just work by dumb luck! Though There
may be some rare packages that need SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH to be some larger
value...  "It can't possibly be 1970, this program was first written in
2002, there must be some error, failing build..."

At any rate, if diverging from upstream Tex Live is how Guix wants to
handle this, I'm all for it!

live well,
  vagrant

--=-=-=
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iHUEARYKAB0WIQRlgHNhO/zFx+LkXUXcUY/If5cWqgUCYrO76QAKCRDcUY/If5cW
qj21AQDXzuxnVReFwakbUMLtq3YkwT71OLtsBFetpxVEZB0JLwD/cTkWU03B75Z0
ZeAN5ncDljOmPh5O1yvDlO4638V1Ag4=
=+v4z
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--=-=-=--