From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id kDxWGaO30GHrXwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 21:20:51 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id MIjcEaO30GGO3QAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 21:20:51 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C901B37A5F for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2022 21:20:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:45392 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3kry-00073K-0A for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 15:20:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42924) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3krZ-00071J-BO for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 15:20:25 -0500 Received: from world.peace.net ([64.112.178.59]:55670) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n3krX-0005ey-H0 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 15:20:25 -0500 Received: from mhw by world.peace.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n3krV-0003tG-1l; Sat, 01 Jan 2022 15:20:21 -0500 From: Mark H Weaver To: Liliana Marie Prikler , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: On raw strings in commit field In-Reply-To: References: <6e451a878b749d4afb6eede9b476e5faabb0d609.camel@gmail.com> <87k0fm7v3k.fsf@netris.org> <871r1smdu6.fsf@netris.org> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2022 15:19:39 -0500 Message-ID: <87tuenky2x.fsf@netris.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.112.178.59; envelope-from=mhw@netris.org; helo=world.peace.net X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.0 / 5.0 requ) SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1641068450; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=+hEZmqcseQYSTNoZUPI0vLqD1jaIgtUEvdEVAj6OpTQ=; b=Aa5ziwlAS65VPkGo44mRuOKA2gUkJsxcbjCx6RWNskmj8hIKebQQ7g+bODt9t+PKHkhoPQ h/tVcrVYkSiZQG7qr09SKQfwG0PkRAIBL/ug1QdyreMKPuEVIAzSgBuDanTQhXZuACCdyb IFh5EATNTrM8Gp2/WOJLoeIJY2QOwlee9kKq0r8NAkfCodq0qCV3S4MbzUMrZRAv/74/vd 0+hystIs2eqW7EJW5PA2HbMskpg1Sn51Fg9EgU/rxWUkeADZYO55CfI38VkKlpefTThJ9A fyZFe/lqHZRngaC2LBgEdfCBlom4MqqCrey7ZwXF4cHdoeyXMt05PgumWJJ5ZQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1641068450; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=aj0j4dHXBrgUGDEVaa3GZ7S6TpTRZ/xVEsCDkOVRwzX3h/MpJEpZkVljqMHmg0jW8sroFV J1dczwLhIq+xV3vzSAQKncsM8BZRJSPjtd7meQNQtCFRnyxKCHaTv0qchYKWqMvyOXqXbB NYYYzZszQFoSVXs7gdLJ6g68+8FRMQdP9pmoB/cgqysP972dYHJ5VP8XNBvHeuNDTxfARy RCP+xgbFMVrEOe2hiiWgMGrP36kLBdC89cmeljujW2YaoXA2GMruy8fIsA1VJza7jjMmjz EhNNHcZZpbOdEcwQNEkw6aE/9GEbzfYOOF2GJmHeT4A736Ad1T3yt/ZfjjhkZA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.08 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C901B37A5F X-Spam-Score: -3.08 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: Fi1mRhcMxceN Hi Liliana, Liliana Marie Prikler writes: > Am Freitag, dem 31.12.2021 um 20:41 -0500 schrieb Mark H Weaver: >> I disagree with the last line above.=C2=A0 What makes you think that I'm >> presupposing that the tag does change? >>=20 >> There's a difference between "presupposing that the tag does change" >> and "not assuming that the tag will not change".=C2=A0 Do you see the >> difference? > I'm pretty sure =C2=ACassume(=C2=ACX) =3D assume(=C2=AC=C2=ACX) in this c= oncept. No, that's certainly false. On the left-hand side of that equation there is an absence of any assumptions, and on the right-hand side there is the assumption that =C2=AC=C2=ACX is true. Perhaps something is getting lost in translation between our languages. > You have to > start with some assumptions and while ideally we'd like to encode "I > don't care", we do not have a system that allows us to do so. > >> > However, if we are always talking about more than one possible >> > "1.2.3" (with the included future tag that we have yet to witness), >> > we lose the basis by which we currently assign "1.2.3" as the >> > version=20 >>=20 >> I see what you're getting at here, but still I disagree.=C2=A0 Our basis >> for associating version "1.2.3" with commit XYZ is simply that >> upstream had indicated that version "1.2.3" was commit XYZ.=C2=A0 That >> historical fact is immutable. > History is a social construct, it's not immutable. I agree that /our knowledge of history/ is a social construct, and thus mutable, but that's not what I was referring to here. I was referring to the facts of what /actually happened/ in the past, which is admittedly unknowable to us (especially in recent times). >> If upstream later indicates that version "1.2.3" is now commit YYZ, I >> don't think that invalidates our basis for continuing to associate >> version "1.2.3" with commit XYZ.=C2=A0 The aforementioned immutable >> historical fact still remains our basis and justification for making >> that association. > I'm pretty sure it does, particularly to a future observer who may not > have the luxury of a history to distinguish that record from one in > which a malicious committer linked those versions and tag together and > then no one bothered to check. It's a valid point. However, your denial of the existence of any immutable historical facts (which is somewhat defensible) is starkly at odds with the fundamental principles of GNU Guix and its core goals. I can understand your desire to have "FOO@1.2.3" in Guix correspond to the most recent announcement from the upstream FOO project on what they consider version "1.2.3" of their package to be. This is obviously a desirable property for a package manager to have. The problem is that it's incompatible with properties of Guix that I consider to be far more important. I don't want the meaning of "FOO@1.2.3" in Guix to depend on what time it is when I ask the question. I want it to mean the same thing tomorrow that it means today. Reproducibility requires this. It requires some notion of immutability. I don't see how to reconcile Guix's core goals with your apparent goal of having "FOO@1.2.3" match upstream's latest idea of what "1.2.3" means to them, without abandoning the use of package version numbers in Guix altogether. We might simply want different things from a package manager. De gustibus non disputandum est. Regards, Mark --=20 Disinformation flourishes because many people care deeply about injustice but very few check the facts. Ask me about .