From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:303:e224::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms13.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0A0mOHIbYGfGCAEAqHPOHw:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 12:22:11 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:303:e224::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0A0mOHIbYGfGCAEAqHPOHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 13:22:11 +0100 X-Envelope-To: larch@yhetil.org Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=iFa1XiOz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1734351730; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=XhwnlEdJV5gilyMkRkNisC2obcWoawWkrV71AP2v7w2T9YIt8S2CO+BteVam3jYpO3+fmA TneD2wcprc19WXZGc179mqZlOzA1IVcxu/rZ4uHVgPek4n00TaCVPvJftWiE4vue7CMkUF ySm97+akJPoATTwqKevRgqwO6PKYQDPY5RL77uqyVG6LLz4owtFviNAuIEi2FbBwyf/CMl 1izR9V4Jvj1oLDDFk3VuEbv/7r1Sk4GogINnJSq2jKlqhUy6f797cJln7ZRDje8XrBDT3T eVK80T094jEC2iLuJ0ztTNO3uzxAqZgm3zX7xGL3HX90fvWMaJNSrTHXwmA54w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=iFa1XiOz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1734351730; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=2IR2ql+UH8afzsZMZCnQvpRf5+NC3MGR1cs9oxcQJFI=; b=IQdEJzohnHRlynfqqPhl11igCMglqM6GWEuYM1A7iJg/QENoXBT0YRBdQBKCOYKDs334Xw wm0FNW3WyefBK2Qh0UU4zvMbFhGti17eJG/7nafYe7qJl/WCS4oImuTIgA4/KxrGkw8XkH MDYKxVbKuIlRzaXsq0gor87+UDK/Ghhj+asmg+Vb5ssKXbmr2C7WlKe3DRpNSze6lFNlD3 8/bhatAMZmeqDB14AW/0Dw2d8odo5sayCe7kz+CW3hxoPrNo3fA5xqrQusybiHMjJ0g104 qnMW1zx4S/iym6BddMdrOFHr5sEogt8SBb6KJmguaZpPMPww5XTGguuSvYyPNQ== Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D17A76184B for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 13:22:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tNA67-0005ZH-Co; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 07:21:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tNA61-0005QN-Og for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 07:21:10 -0500 Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tNA5y-0000Uo-LJ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 07:21:09 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2eed82ca5b4so3353834a91.2 for ; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 04:21:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1734351664; x=1734956464; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=2IR2ql+UH8afzsZMZCnQvpRf5+NC3MGR1cs9oxcQJFI=; b=iFa1XiOzrawSXLjrXCgpEHo5IhgUg85Ye9yOW8ChieDRypH9mJDTMdnaInMXsYTMEQ DORqy1kNi1B8lkZDY4JBAMCtgeAVvRmRjJVn1+4Qu4vtJswqW0EEPQJjTMIOPIHoBlfa nAArN7ycPIFTPOu9V0ZkK5DTu+aiTfNw288YRemYtAFEujmNobHAwR2UBvoa2LGtyFNA /sio/RsoeF3rb8nl7YEPLML/wf6jwPpydEAZEvTsyy2/+3bRkk7JGz9r+SU0dq7jWp/t eK0AifyHSC9QP+ZjYqCTUcvo96mjddKZwAO0QIQORIdzpVywjk3To2Jd6kNB6bQnu9dG m+WA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1734351664; x=1734956464; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2IR2ql+UH8afzsZMZCnQvpRf5+NC3MGR1cs9oxcQJFI=; b=Pqal5O6ShfhRiwdfuziiswgIOh3Tmk8zwWb1Iz7YmlJXkqnuujhwmMu5zSYLkdZGxd fGDJfpY08iASXt+cd1TblW1jF64z3/tLWM07WJenrYN6cJIHJ44ZvM9Texy59pqlJI33 XA6ZdLsskXyGbApWT3dJBUMwuecE6igb5yb6U/BlKuMOlrZoHTuvqFyWmE1GaK35HKoR VrPpoAXxtR33mGlmgcQfGjXSGyxD7WDVKPuDl58a/MOV4p+DI0svfNic3j9MCGxYkoCd x2EPbapCekcsPKGhpUQLkA5UxUttuo6PzaFoIWWN7RaoGfjL0vL0wROytKpDEPqxTdhN S5Bw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWCwsZTOuQV9G1aESFP306uPN6a56Kw8xLS9dSgWXyXc52KOSmf1TrUAIYtCzO+e3y/n6U+Yn2W0rId@gnu.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyFhyGTvbu6jMdxUTwjbH1qIXZPNVe/XtRfjcj4rc98nhANBBii oHV79vCz7+O4IOivbzkJ4AzQkuPuiLtz6dA13WDQ3aThYgAY1/enKiTT6ozR X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncudj3QPG6sDrmztxYQ8qdbWVd6lMVF5roYV3XLAooTvqSzvjg4tpHIxTWkenLG Awwi/FwjkFBEXvnOlhGI1Xf/BTH9iIXYQR3HhKMPMV/jrqt5FUuXSmxPImy/2hj9vi1ekPaisLE tr8qn1trHBr+3vdXRktz/WrGn/JmZacmL8uUaQAgqU6XOdewnD6y4uUV7PKInjUY46ghW4Vqdb7 gQkrtaH8R5Pi2MNJRkI2TJ2LJEKMvEhX4cnnkhgW/ZU7Ic26wvRUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHzC500Ix2a4WJIsaehwtTfAL1UJCujoqiTKw4J+DVG5UTQmDRDrQtpZ1DlozPRHd1MZ6Vs3A== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:4a49:b0:2ee:863e:9fff with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-2f28fb67634mr19067573a91.10.1734351664354; Mon, 16 Dec 2024 04:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from terra ([2405:6586:be0:0:c8ff:1707:9b9:af89]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9443c01a7336-218a1e62bf2sm41414615ad.213.2024.12.16.04.21.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Dec 2024 04:21:03 -0800 (PST) From: Maxim Cournoyer To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: Divya Ranjan , "Thompson, David" , Ekaitz Zarraga , paul , guix-devel Subject: Re: Guix (and Guile's) promise, and how to (hopefully) get there In-Reply-To: <87ttb4isx2.fsf@elephly.net> (Ricardo Wurmus's message of "Sun, 15 Dec 2024 21:37:45 +0100") References: <02559f63-35e6-4159-9d4c-e1d423aad3be@elenq.tech> <8b58064321ae06543061ffaa843e4267@libre.brussels> <5e7b06af-96f4-4264-a67f-7b8914b3eab1@elenq.tech> <4379269f-7c17-43be-836c-babf883fd2bf@autistici.org> <206e6eb0-7bc2-4b5b-bf1d-3e016926633a@elenq.tech> <87bjxdxtwd.fsf@gmail.com> <87plltp9c1.fsf@subvertising.org> <87ttb4isx2.fsf@elephly.net> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2024 21:20:53 +0900 Message-ID: <87ttb3u8d6.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c; envelope-from=maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.44 X-Spam-Score: -6.44 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D17A76184B X-Migadu-Scanner: mx12.migadu.com X-TUID: 2G2CcdE3xCBH Hi Ricardo Ricardo Wurmus writes: > Divya Ranjan writes: > >> Similarly, I would suggest the thoughts on improving Guix/Guile to >> look at aspects of the project where we might not be doing the best >> job, or if we can take different steps in terms of reachout. But as an >> user and contributor, please don=E2=80=99t take steps to separate Guix f= rom >> GNU. It=E2=80=99ll be a considerable loss too both the projects. > > Some of the parts of GNU that really matter to us as Guix are presented > at . The philosophy that was thought up and > manifested in the early GNU project is what continues to inform our > technical decisions today: e.g. no distinction between admins and users, > making software freedom a practical rather than hypothetical freedom, > giving people [not just developers] the tools to take charge of their > software needs, etc. > > Those of us who have had the displeasure of dealing with the > *organization* that is called GNU (for example in their role as > maintainers), however, find it hamstrung by authoritarian governance, > dominated by a few loud cranks who are given limitless influence in all > internal discussions, and see their work devalued by tonedeaf statements > and actions. > I'm someone who came to Guix because of Scheme and GNU, but as the years > went on I stayed in *spite* of the association with the entity that GNU > is now -- luckily, Guix (and with the select links to hackers in other > GNU-affiliated projects) is a much better embodiment of the early GNU > philosophy than GNU itself. That the GNU-internal mailing list that > contributed significantly to this shift has no public archives is both > an immeasurable blessing and a curse. While I guess this list may feel a bit like the Far West at times (I seldomly participate in it), in that there's little moderation and a few individuals have loud opinions, I don't think it's fair to label the GNU people/organization as a whole according to the impression/experience you've had in this private list. Most if not all of the interactions I've had with GNU/FSF people in the last few years have been cordial and constructive (I'm thinking of the people maintaining the infrastructure, e.g. on the #savannah channel on IRC or the GNU Debbugs folks, of the FSF staff sometimes communicating with us co-maintainers, of the Emacs and other GNU packages people I've dealt with when reporting/investigating bugs with them, the Linux-libre people, etc.). I haven't tried convincing the GNU people to review/change their governance structure, though, which I'm sure would need to be made with a lot of tact and humility to avoid the issue becoming a "us vs them" situation. --=20 Thanks, Maxim