Using 'λ'

Using 'λ'

[Alex Vong]

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Hello guix,

Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).

Cheers,
Alex

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Re: Using 'λ'

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

Alex,

Alex Vong wrote:
> Hello guix,
>
> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have 
> discussed it
> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on 
> source
> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant 
> and it
> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).

One of those 'λ's is probably mine, but it is indeed 
discouraged. I also forget why.

I now use global-prettify-symbols-mode to create my own reality.

Kind regards,

T G-R

Re: Using 'λ'

[Alex Vong]

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Hi T G-R,

Tobias Geerinckx-Rice <me@tobias.gr> writes:

> Alex,
>
> Alex Vong wrote:
>> Hello guix,
>>
>> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed
>> it
>> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
>> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
>> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
>
> One of those 'λ's is probably mine, but it is indeed discouraged. I
> also forget why.
>
> I now use global-prettify-symbols-mode to create my own reality.
>
Thanks! I've tried it just now. It works except that the column number
is not right (it counts λ as 2 chars instead of 6 chars). Similar modes
such as glass-mode doesn't have this problem. Do you know of any way to
fix it?

> Kind regards,
>
> T G-R

Cheers,
Alex

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Re: Using 'λ'

[Leo Famulari]

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On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
> Hello guix,
> 
> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).

I think it's a little too obscure for non-Schemers coming to Guix. The
Guix packaging EDSL is readable with basically no Scheme knowledge at
all. For that reason, I'd avoid λ in the packages, at least.

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Re: Using 'λ'

[Efraim Flashner]

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On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
> Hello guix,
> 
> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
> 

I know it's lambda, but to me it's like the ⓒ symbol. When I need to use
it I have to copy-paste it from somewhere else. I'm guessing as others
have mentioned, if you didn't recognize the Greek letter or come in
knowing some lisp then it's a wierd symbol that makes it harder to read
the source.

-- 
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Re: Using 'λ'

[Chris Marusich]

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Efraim Flashner <efraim@flashner.co.il> writes:

> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
>> Hello guix,
>> 
>> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
>> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
>> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
>> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
>> 
>
> I know it's lambda, but to me it's like the ⓒ symbol. When I need to use
> it I have to copy-paste it from somewhere else. I'm guessing as others
> have mentioned, if you didn't recognize the Greek letter or come in
> knowing some lisp then it's a wierd symbol that makes it harder to read
> the source.

I agree; I think writing "lambda" is better than using the symbol.  The
symbol is cute, but writing "lambda" is less surprising.

-- 
Chris

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Re: Using 'λ'

[Alex Vong]

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Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:

> Efraim Flashner <efraim@flashner.co.il> writes:
>
>> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 04:51:48PM +0800, Alex Vong wrote:
>>> Hello guix,
>>> 
>>> Should we allow the use of 'λ' in guix? I think we have discussed it
>>> before, but I forget why it was rejected. Running 'rgrep' on source
>>> shows 7 uses of it. I think it is syntactically more pleasant and it
>>> encourges the use of short functions (at least for me!).
>>> 
>>
>> I know it's lambda, but to me it's like the ⓒ symbol. When I need to use
>> it I have to copy-paste it from somewhere else. I'm guessing as others
>> have mentioned, if you didn't recognize the Greek letter or come in
>> knowing some lisp then it's a wierd symbol that makes it harder to read
>> the source.
>
> I agree; I think writing "lambda" is better than using the symbol.  The
> symbol is cute, but writing "lambda" is less surprising.

OK. It seems many think λ is not newcomer-friendly, which is not what I
have thought about before. (Thanks for telling me!) I guess it's because
I have seen it in school physics before. But of course this is not a
compulsory subject, so it could be a wierd symbol for many.

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Re: Using 'λ'

[Chris Marusich]

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Alex Vong <alexvong1995@gmail.com> writes:

> [...] It seems many think λ is not newcomer-friendly [...].

I would go one step farther and argue that the name "lambda" itself is
not the best, regardless of whether it's written as "lambda" or "λ".  I
agree with the authors of Structure and Interpretation of Computers when
they wrote ((sicp) 1.3.2):

"It would be clearer and less intimidating to people learning Lisp if a
name more obvious than ‘lambda’, such as ‘make-procedure’, were used.
But the convention is firmly entrenched."

But I digress.  That ship has sailed, so the least we can do is to write
"lambda" instead of "λ" to keep Guix approachable/hackable for
newcomers.  Every little bit counts.

-- 
Chris

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Re: Using 'λ'

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello!

Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:

> Alex Vong <alexvong1995@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> [...] It seems many think λ is not newcomer-friendly [...].
>
> I would go one step farther and argue that the name "lambda" itself is
> not the best, regardless of whether it's written as "lambda" or "λ".  I
> agree with the authors of Structure and Interpretation of Computers when
> they wrote ((sicp) 1.3.2):
>
> "It would be clearer and less intimidating to people learning Lisp if a
> name more obvious than ‘lambda’, such as ‘make-procedure’, were used.
> But the convention is firmly entrenched."

I agree; “procedure” or even “function” would be much clearer…

> But I digress.  That ship has sailed, so the least we can do is to write
> "lambda" instead of "λ" to keep Guix approachable/hackable for
> newcomers.  Every little bit counts.

Agreed!

(And I’m saying this as the person who added λ to boot-9.scm.  :-))

Ludo’.