From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id AFS7HZu6E2IeRgEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 17:15:23 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id kFclFpu6E2IasQAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 17:15:23 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9C4A3735D for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 17:15:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58914 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMBLN-0004Ld-RS for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:15:21 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60280) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMBKl-0004J8-13 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:14:43 -0500 Received: from dustycloud.org ([50.116.34.160]:40430) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMBKi-00058j-RR for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:14:42 -0500 Received: from chicory (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustycloud.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9601C266A1; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:14:39 -0500 (EST) References: <9cfec52325723f1fa99e5f4a99b982b7ab0fcd33.camel@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 From: Christine Lemmer-Webber To: Taylan Kammer Subject: Re: [minor patch] Amend CoC Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 11:01:17 -0500 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87r17wfb81.fsf@dustycloud.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=50.116.34.160; envelope-from=cwebber@dustycloud.org; helo=dustycloud.org X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, Liliana Marie Prikler Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645460122; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=UF1K5LJ8wNxy0EW6AUgmwEBuRSaAfV5VsjjchGd+XNs=; b=gMBM8LZTr6/IE4Sa3Yf6bq/3c3Ankw5tzUZM9EJ78LzfSld1cN7nq0W2/5MaQR76qhRiQN 0m2sdgsjvyZoI+dylMZvHyQ/IGW8cB7L75aaCm9TfAFE0XZz7WJvt2ojOOCy92UPMD9NA2 z8Jeh5W8Vv094dwVXKehI5DIfim4y0azZveCQsH0WDUcK1k0J+Q4B/3FYSRVRyd4IGo7Qq w9zvC+vbuHjDMjb1RvHKiBVnUkT44bcco4VULkof/bC2Km3YYCMjLzXfPgcS7Ebmwnn3a+ IVKDwHJXKNfPMC1J1bK0/fPVzxSkFZKq9lQohfm2sQ+bKnQzStAO5vvC0kwMSw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645460122; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=aRgPZL5G6uAXFpkevHPrXFn2owqiczuucETYO7Ti08BDSEv23XEGm53RNezts9Rzqu/mjv wdMcNMjaJu+zlbNGuPyh28bQTZy5lmrc6Zh6xCxAwpfnfPCajSDuL65YeyiIo2KCuTQriC 9N/gugIK72ZnMkaQsfAYdX8GrxvM2MXaxnSa8rAYInfYawTcVkDSAzwrS3WcBlXOEpOwhR 5w0gAvSdEDp8900B+5cO4C/9HM5sVWDr2uV0suWTr23mIYBjUsTp+AyKNNwCXkW7oZciBg DntuxvR0f7Jp5xJgN4eZcEUtwP+fozg5EYnr3Ma/ZtGnPvS9D595OzLtmmc3Jg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.13 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A9C4A3735D X-Spam-Score: -3.13 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: mK/sBW+5XfC7 Taylan Kammer writes: > On 20.02.2022 19:05, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: >>> Note: The upstream Contributor Covenant wouldn't want to include it >>> because the author seems to have a peculiar world-view where they >>> don't acknowledge that humans actually have a sex. I hope the Guix >>> maintainers are more reasonable than that. :-) >> Sorry, but tracking down the issue you submitted towards the >> contributor covenant, it appears to me that you are the misguided one. >> The CoC already prohibits discrimination based on gender identity, >> sexual identity and sexual orientation. If you identify your gender as >> your sex, whatever that might be, you are thereby already protected. >> >> The wording you chose (intentionally or otherwise) tries to invalidate >> other people's gender identity and thus violates the CoC. >> >> Cheers > > I had really hoped this would be an uncontroversial suggestion... > > It might be useful to provide a link in case others want to take a look at > the debate as well: > > https://github.com/EthicalSource/contributor_covenant/pull/548 > > I've said everything there I'd say now if I were to argue back, and I really > don't want to argue about this on a Guix ML anyway, so I'll leave it to the > maintainers to decide what to do. Just one remark for them: most women I > know would think twice before spending time trying to get into a community > whose rules intentionally don't acknowledge sex-based discrimination. My first thought when looking at the top of this thread was, "well I would be okay with adding a word if it isn't an *entry point* for debating trans experiences on list" but it looks like it's likely to be so: https://github.com/EthicalSource/contributor_covenant/pull/548#issuecomment-399692924 So I share Liliana's concerns. I think it looks like the conversation on-list is already going in that direction. It looks like it did on the referenced pull request already too. I'm a transwoman with intersex characteristics. I've certainly read a ton about sexual and gender therory, have read plenty of books on it and I can say without a doubt that I really just don't feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list. I don't want to put any assertions of intention in here either, but just state that it looks like this is already opening that kind of experience here, the concerns that this could be an "entry point" for that kind of back and forth already seems to be playing out, and I that makes this not a "minor patch" to me. At any rate, the CoC already says "gender identity and expression" and "sexual identity and orientation". Seems that already covers a broad ground to me. - Christine