From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Subject: Gender politics Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:18:32 +0200 Message-ID: <87pogxcl13.fsf_-_@gmail.com> References: <20170323054600.GA18841@jocasta.intra> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48352) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cu24D-0005Kh-52 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:18:39 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cu24B-00061s-I5 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:18:37 -0400 Received: from mail-wr0-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c0c::236]:34568) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cu24B-00061C-8K for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:18:35 -0400 Received: by mail-wr0-x236.google.com with SMTP id l43so115000730wre.1 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from T420 ([2a02:908:c30:3540:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o196sm3958310wmg.12.2017.03.31.12.18.32 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:18:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (catonano@gmail.com's message of "Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:09:43 +0200") List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guix-devel Catonano writes: > [...] > In this regard, I'd like to point out that you observed how these > gender based objections are often raised by male cisgender people > about mislabeling transgender women but not as often by cisgender > women about mislabeling transgender men. > [...] I've only very briefly skimmed some parts of the original thread and am not interested in it per se, but since the word "cisgender" has come up I'd like to raise a certain concern. Many ideals put forth in contemporary mainstream leftist discourse in relation to transgender politics, such as the concept of "gender identity" and in particular "cisgender" (or at least, particular interpretations of these words) are in fact found to be regressive and harmful by many women (and some men) who feel strongly about liberation from systems of male supremacy. It is a relatively involved topic, in which some extreme emotions and enmity tend to surface, so I'll try to avoid talking about it as much as possible on this ML. I will give a brief explanation of the problem with "cisgender" as a concrete example, name a few authors and activists who have elaborated on the perspective I'm speaking of so anyone interested can read up, and provide a trivial data point on the topic. The concept of "cisgender" normalizes male people's identification with maleness. In fact, a male person actively identifying with maleness (rather than merely acknowledging their sexual anatomy as an arbitrary medical aspect of their body, which grants them privileges in society due to a system of sexism) is likely to be doing so as part of a male supremacist mindset, akin to how a white person actively identifying with whiteness (rather than merely acknowledging their skin pigmentation as an arbitrary medical aspect of their body, which grants them privileges in society due to a system of racism) is likely to be doing so as part of a white supremacist mindset. Authors and activists who have criticized recent turns in mainstream leftist politics with regard to transgender politics, whose works will help understand this position, include: Julie Bindel, Meghan E. Murphy, Penny White, Sarah Ditum, Glosswitch, Claire Heuchan (Sister Outrider), Miranda Yardley, Lierre Keith, Sheila Jeffreys, Magdalen Berns, and in part Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. Also, the Women's Liberation Front. Understanding basic (radical) feminist social analysis and ideology should be a great help in understanding the position as well, if not in fact being a prerequisite to understanding the on-topic works of the above listed people. Standard, classical literature on radical feminism can be found at http://radfem.org/. I can vouch for the works of Andrea Dworkin in particular, all of which are available for free in PDF format at the linked website. (Side-note: "radical feminism" does not mean "extremist feminism" or "militant feminism", it refers to a specific group of feminist ideologies which are more radical [as in "going to the roots"] in their analysis and ideals than some others.) Lastly, a trivial data point about possible effects of inclusivity or exclusivity, should our Code of Conduct mandate obeying a certain position on this ideological split: using a social media account with a few hundred followers consisting primarily of women who feel strongly about women's liberation including the mentioned topic, I've run a poll asking women how willing they would be to contribute to a project whose code of conduct disallows the use of sex-based pronouns for people who disidentify with them (i.e. they may use "she" or "they", but not "he", for a male person who does not identify as a man); the outcome was as follows: Votes: 61 - 48% Would "never" contribute to such a project - 37% "Depends but rather not" - 8% "Depends but probably yes" - 7% "Sure" I can provide a link to the poll in private upon request, as I've preemptively began dissociating the social media account in question from my personal identity after some minor e-stalking incidents. I'm also happy to provide further elaborations on the topic in private. However, I will not debate it in private and especially not on the ML. ("Debate" meaning an exchange with a party that already has their mind made up on the topic and wishes to change others'. I wish to debate it only on public forums dedicated to the topic.) - - - As for what my concrete proposal is in dealing with this issue: force neutrality. If you ban language that invalidates male-born people's self-identification as women (such as through use of 'he'), also ban language that validates it, forcing use of gender agnostic language instead (such as singular 'they'). It's far from perfect, but I think it's the least bad thing that can be done if you wish to be inclusive of all women and other people who feel strongly about liberation from male supremacy. Sorry about touching such a difficult topic, Taylan